TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Range with standard charge mode in Model S

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by pguerra, Sep 2, 2012.

  1. pguerra

    pguerra Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    180
    Hi all,

    In a Model S with 85kwh battery and fully charged in standard mode (not range mode), what will the maximum range be in miles? I know if charged in range mode the range would be around 265mi, but I'm interested in standard charging since that is what I'll be doing most of the time in order to conserve battery life. Yes, I also know "your milage will vary" depending on driving style and A/C habits, but I just want to know what the number is for the standard charge range.

    The longest I'd have to drive in a day would be about 130 miles (50 miles for work and 70 miles for play, round trip). 130 miles in a day would be an super rare event as normally my work miles are b/t 5-15 miles (and I don't play every day just the weekends). I'd say I do 50 miles for work round trip once every 4-6 months.

    Thanks!
     
  2. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    It's been discussed some here
    Available kWh in Standard and Range Mode for Model S?

    I'm not sure if it's know yet what exact percentage or number of kWhs you have access to in standard mode but if it's similar to the Roadster, I'd guess you'll get about 240 'ideal' miles so maybe around 180-200 normal highway with AC miles. That is just my guess though.
     
  3. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    12,766
    Location:
    Texas
    The YMMV part is so big that until there are a lot more Model S on the road it's anyone's guess. Even the 265 EPA number is more of a guess than a factual number. The closest you can come, in the absence of real data for your normal routes, is to do the following:

    1. Find the EPA number of your current car.

    2. Get the real MPG from your current car's logbook.

    3. Divide #2 by #1 to get a ratio of your driving to the EPA test number.

    4. Get the EPA number for the Model S. (89)

    5. Multiply #3 by #4 to get the eMPG that you can expect and convert that into range.
     
  4. pguerra

    pguerra Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2011
    Messages:
    180
    Thanks. I read through that thread. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to make the 130 miles with full A/C, music, windows down, and pedal to the Sig Performance metal in an 85 kWh battery in standard charge mode. That is all I was hoping for. If the range in standard charge mode is say 150 or more, I think I'd be okay.

    I just don't want to have any range anxiety which is why I chose the 85kwh battery. But after learning that a range mode charge can degrade the battery life faster when left "for long periods of time" (whatever that means), then I'm sort of stuck worrying about range in standard charge mode b/c I don't want to risk degrading battery faster by charging in range mode everyday.

    I think this is sort of disappointing to the 40kwh buyers, who, when charging in standard mode to maximize battery life, will not be able to count on getting the advertised 160 miles.

    I wish I knew what standard mode charge meant in terms of range. For example, 20% decrease in range from 300 miles (EPA 265), etc.

    Incidentally, my MacAir 2011 is pretty much left connected to power supply all day every day except for the once in a while that I take the computer with me. I've already noticed that it doesn't last as long as when I first bought it. Good thing there's a 3 yr warranty on the computer/battery which I plan to make full use of later.
     
  5. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    #5 dsm363, Sep 2, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
    Don't charge in range mode unless you need to. If you're taking off on a trip at 10AM you can charge in standard mode then top up in range mode when you wake up. You could also set your charge time to be such that a range charge would finish a few hours before you were ready to take off. They may even have a 'finish by X time' feature at some point.

    You'll easily be able to get 130 miles with AC (I'd keep windows up if you were doing AC of course) at any legal speed so I wouldn't worry about that. Your MacBook Air is not an ideal comparison since I don't think there is any active battery thermal management there when there is extensive thermal management for the Model S battery pack. Your Model S battery pack should last many times longer than a typical laptop battery.

    Charging in range mode isn't really bad by itself it but you shouldn't use it unless you need it.
     
  6. CapitalistOppressor

    CapitalistOppressor Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,621
    I've been paying a lot more attention to the difference between standard mode and range mode as well. Based on what I've seen in Roadster forums I've basically decided that Jalopnik's estimate of ~160 miles driving 80+ with two people and the A/C on looks fine to me. I have little doubt I can drive in such a way as to get only 100 miles of range, but my typical worst case standard mode charge seems likely to get me ~180 miles, with ~200 miles looking like my normal standard mode range with how I normally drive on the highway.
     
  7. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    12,766
    Location:
    Texas
    What it means is that after you charge in range mode you should start driving right away. It's leaving it at a full range charge that's the problem. So you should time range charges to finish just before you start your drive. In that way the battery won't be harmed.
     
  8. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    950
    Location:
    Fredrikstad, Norway
    Since Range Mode charges to 85% you can count on the mileage decrease to be pretty close to 85%. So EPA mileage around 225 miles for the 85kWh battery.
     
  9. Jeeps17

    Jeeps17 Cath Jockey in a P85

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    875
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    I suggest you choose full A/C OR windows down, and will already have increased your range ! :wink:
     
  10. smorgasbord

    smorgasbord Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2011
    Messages:
    2,379
    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    #10 smorgasbord, Sep 2, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
    For Model S, there is no bottom "reserve" in Standard mode like there is for Roadster. You can see this when you test drive Model S and switch between Standard and Range mode and the range remaining stays the same.

    For Roadster, the difference for me is about 53 miles (242 vs 189), of which 27 miles (216-189) is the bottom reserve. So, if Roadster worked like Model S then Range mode would still be 242 ideal miles but Standard mode would be 215 ideal miles. That's about an 11% less range with Standard. So, since Range mode is 300 ideal miles then Standard will be about 267 ideal miles.

    Now, actual miles to ideal miles. For me, it's about 90%, but I never pushed the low end that much, so about 87% (I've gone about 210 miles on a range charge twice, on freeways doing about 65mph, top down or heat on, etc.). So, that's about 232 miles for Standard mode.

    Now, if you're going to push the speeds to 70-75, add more passengers, etc. that'll drop, but it would seem that 200 actual miles in Standard is easy.

    Unless I've gotten my math wrong.
     
  11. ModelS1079

    ModelS1079 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    837
    Location:
    Suburban Boston
    Smorgasbord - very helpful. I am wondering additionally if you would therefore guess an average range in standard mode for the 60kWh (230mi Model S) battery as...about 199 miles? I am still toggling the 85kWh and 60kWh and need to commit, well, now... Wondering further how many miles you have over how many years and what you have seen for degradation. I am expecting we will all do better than the SEC filing rehashed here a few years ago (3-2010):

    (Risk Factors. This section typically has the worst case scenario to warn potential investors. So this might be worst case predictions to cover themselves.)

    Page 16 (top)

    The range of our electric vehicles on a single charge declines over time which may negatively influence potential customers’ decisions whether to purchase our vehicles.

    The range of our electric vehicles on a single charge declines principally as a function of usage, time, and charging patterns. For example, a customer’s use of their Tesla vehicle as well as the frequency with which they charge the battery of their Tesla vehicle can result in additional deterioration of the battery’s ability to hold a charge. We currently expect that our battery pack will retain approximately 60-65% of its ability to hold its initial charge after approximately 100,000 miles or 7 years, which will result in a decrease to the vehicle’s initial range. Such battery deterioration and the related decrease in range may negatively influence potential customer decisions whether to purchase our vehicles, which may harm our ability to market and sell our vehicles.
     
  12. Chas F

    Chas F Model S 60kWh #P6396

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    P# 6396. My first post to this forum but I've been following for a while.

    As I am budget constrained and finalization approaching, I have ended up (for now) choosing the 40kw battery and tech package vs 60 kw battery w/no tech, but that is a discussion for another thread...

    What I really wonder is, "What has more impact on battery degradation, frequent Range Mode charging or operating outside of the optimal SOC, i.e., below 20% charge remaining?"

    The math says that choosing the smaller battery pack makes more sense for me from a financial and operational standpoint, but it may mean "pushing it" on occasion. During the week, my commute will be no more than 30 miles/day. On the weekend, I expect to average about 70 miles/day but there will be the occasional 90-100 mile day on the weekend. I would expect I will know of those days in advance so may choose to charge in Range Mode to ensure I can make it. I'm sure there will be times when I would need to choose between a Range charge and arriving at home with only 10% remaining charge.

    Any thoughts out there as to which scenario causes the most degradation? I'm guessing the diff would be neglible but just don't know.
     
  13. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    12,766
    Location:
    Texas
  14. Chas F

    Chas F Model S 60kWh #P6396

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Excellent! That gives me enough info to make an educated guess. Since the micro cracks are heat related, the degradation effects should be the same whether Range charging or running a low SOC and I would tend towards the lower SOC because I would expect to be in that state for a shorter period of time (the final 30 mile trip home, for ex). This also assumes that the cooling system is always in operation.

    Thanks for the assist jerry33!
     
  15. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    2,428
    Location:
    WY
    #15 wycolo, Sep 3, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
    > For Model S, there is no bottom "reserve" in Standard mode like there is for Roadster. You can see this when you test drive Model S and switch between Standard and Range mode and the range remaining stays the same. [smorgasbord]

    Caution here. It may not make any visible change until you actually *arrive* at the bottom 10% SOC, or whatever bottom segment is of interest to the car be it Roadster or ModelS. I've been surprised by this in my 2.0, noticing all kinds of different IDEAL MILES visuals on the Touch Screen. Different colors of graph, different estimates, depending if you are driving in Range Mode vs Standard (as you'd expect) but also with my new firmware (July 2012) seems like everything is different. I started bringing along a clipboard thinking I'd record everything & really understand it. Miserable failure! A vid_cam focussed on the TS might be the only solution. Start camera @35 miles from home (driving in Range Mode) because that is just about where the battery enters the bottom SOC segment, and the TS craziness begins.

    To sidestep all this I've decided simply to ADD a little more to an overnight Standard Charge by manually going up to 205 miles in Range Mode in the morning just before I leave. This 'overcharge' will quickly be used up in the first 15 miles so 'minimum' damage to battery. Then make the ~180 mile round trip milk run (for shopping twice monthly).

    On the return trip I may be lucky enough to avoid dipping into the bottom 10% SOC entirely, thus avoiding any TS craziness.
    Or if there are extra headwinds or increased electrical use for wipers, heater or headlights, then I won't be dipping so far into it.

    Interesting variant: In summer I can take an alternate route which is 10 miles shorter (RT) but climbs 1000 feet higher. With the new method I now have the confidence to attempt this, at least heading out. If it proves more than the Roadster can handle, I can bail & return the old way. Clipboard will be put to full use recording all waypoint data.
    --
     
  16. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    13,257
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Figured it was worth posting Rod & Barbara's comment/experience from the TM forum:

     
  17. RobotGrease

    RobotGrease Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    253
    Location:
    United States
    Edmonds Beats EPA's 265mile Range!

    Hi everyone,

    This is my first post, been an observer for a long time. I'm a huge Tesla fan obviously, but not a reservation holder...yet!

    Anyways, I'm always searching for the absolute latest info and have found several times to be "ahead" of the forum. I finally decided I should learn to share:

    From Dan Edmunds of Edmunds.com:

    "Just spent a loooong day in a #Tesla Model S, beating its 265-mile EPA range. All city/suburban traffic with plenty of signals, zero freeway"

    https://twitter.com/Edmunds_Test/status/243212829535129600
     
  18. RobotGrease

    RobotGrease Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    253
    Location:
    United States
  19. NigelM

    NigelM Recovering Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2011
    Messages:
    13,257
    Location:
    Sarasota, FL
    Welcome to TMC! As this discussion on Model S range had recently started, I merged your new thread in here. Don't let that put you off! :smile:

    Also, feel free to introduce yourself over here: Introductions
     
  20. RobotGrease

    RobotGrease Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    253
    Location:
    United States

Share This Page