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Rant about AutoPilot and "hands on the wheel"
- Thread starter kirkbauer
- Start date
This is an overreaction to the bad press. We went through something similar years ago after the first major accident when somebody drove over a trailer hitch, puncturing the battery and causing a fire. Tesla quickly pushed out an update to all cars disabling the air suspension system - which they later restored along with the addition of increased armor plating for the front of the battery pack.
Other manufacturers are using cameras to verify the driver is watching the road. Tesla is relying on the steering wheel sensors. Neither technique guarantees the driver is actually paying attention.
If going overboard now on the hands detection reduces or eliminates the bad publicity on accidents while running on AutoSteer when the driver has removed hands from the wheel - then that's what Tesla needs to do right now. And then start dialing it back to something more reasonable.
The better long term solution is to fix the AutoSteer software to avoid the situations causing the recent accidents - something they have to do in order to get approval for FSD.
Other manufacturers are using cameras to verify the driver is watching the road. Tesla is relying on the steering wheel sensors. Neither technique guarantees the driver is actually paying attention.
If going overboard now on the hands detection reduces or eliminates the bad publicity on accidents while running on AutoSteer when the driver has removed hands from the wheel - then that's what Tesla needs to do right now. And then start dialing it back to something more reasonable.
The better long term solution is to fix the AutoSteer software to avoid the situations causing the recent accidents - something they have to do in order to get approval for FSD.
chispas
Member
Ater 500 messages on another thread about the nags what we need are two more thread about them 
Can they have their own subforum?
Can they have their own subforum?The directions for using Autosteer from the manual indicates that your hand needed to be on the wheel at all times. I don't understand the rant. Please have a look in the manual. People are just ranting because they don't like following rules. That is all.
This is a good example that people think they are right based on their perception rather reading into the details. Humans will always have communication problems.
This is a good example that people think they are right based on their perception rather reading into the details. Humans will always have communication problems.
Given that one of the details in the discussion about the nags is how nags are related to torque and not "hands being on the wheel" and another is that attentiveness is not coextensive with "torque on wheel", it seems that you are not reading into the details and thus having communication problems based on your perception that "people are just ranting because they don't like following rules."
If it is a problem. Why didn't the OP approach the SC and approach us?
I never have any issues with this "nagging" in 2018.21.9
I never have any issues with this "nagging" in 2018.21.9
sdugan99
Member
Would you be ok with Tesla limiting the speed of the car based on the speed limit? It would be following the law. Of course the manual says "Keep and on the Wheel" It is Tesla covering their ass in case of an accident.
Same here. I get frequent nags at 10 and 2. My nag-elimination grip is to hold on with one hand and let the weight of my arm keep a constant light pressure on the wheel. It seems less safe, but it shuts up the nag.
I'd like to see an improved grip detection technology in future hardware that uses actual grip pressure or maybe capacitive sensing like a touch screen. I don't mind holding on. I mind getting repeatedly told that I'm not holding on when I am in fact holding on.
Lets face it.. other manufactors will start pushing out electric vehicles soon. Jaguar already has. And they will be much better build and more desirable than Tesla. Tesla has two unique points that keep them in business. The supercharger network and their leading position on autopilot... With this update they are giving away one of these. Having to keep hands on the wheel at all times puts Mercedes, BMW, Volvo and Audi at par with Tesla.. So only the supercharger to hang on to. I fear it will be not enough to keep them in business.
I think you have just pointed out the issue here. The issue is not that keeping your hands on the wheel is safer. The increased nag times doesn't make AP safer, it doesn't make you watch the road more carefully. What it does is taking care of Tesla's legal ass and marketing problems it has with autopilot.
I honestly believe the increased nag times are decreasing safety:
- Holding the wheel is not always enough. You have to apply torque. Not everyone does this in their 'natural driving position'. If this is the case, as it is with me, it gets me out of my comfort zone. I am asked to fulfill a task every 15 to seconds seconds while driving. This is like receiving a text every 30 seconds. To clarify: When I have my hands resting on the wheel, it does not detect my presence. I have to "wiggle" the wheel.
- The nags on the IC remove your view from the road. This can happen every 15 seconds.
- There is no confirmation that you have wiggled the wheel enough, thus what I do is I watch the IC until the notification goes away. This means 2 to 3 seconds no eyes on the road, every 15 to 30 second.
- It is generally irritating and frustrating. Anger and frustration is not good on public roads
- Having your hands on the wheel has _very little_ to do with actually being alert. I can hold the wheel and write a letter on pen and paper with my other hand. I can use my phone with one hand. I can watch a movie. The 'hands on wheel' is a very bad indication of driver awareness.
The end result of this is that:
- People will stop using AP or use it less. With 21.9 I turned AP off after about an hour. I was fed up with it.. Tesla has always stated AP increased safety. So this should would safety. Multiple people on TMC have stated they stopped using AP due to the new nags.
- People will invent ways to fool the system. Water bottles, oranges, autopilot buddy, etc. I purchased an AP buddy 3 days ago and got an e-mail they were slammed with orders since the new firmware. Proving my point. Again, decreased safety.
So I feel Tesla has either simply made the wrong choice by thinking increased nags increase safety. Or they choose to help their legal and/or marketing / public opinion issues they have with all the accidents that specifically mention the Tesla brand in any accident, regardless of wether AP was involved at all.
If it is the first then they should correct this. If it is the latter then Tesla might have chosen their reputation over our lives.
I hope it's the first, but I think it's the latter.
Krugerrand
Meow
A) they have to legally cover their asses because irresponsible people (thanks for the examples you gave) and an overly ligitious society - you do want Tesla to succeed in their mission, right?
B) disagree vehemently with the nags making it less safe or more distracting or the various other excuses being used because you don’t like it/can’t drive the car the way you think u should be able to or whatever straw man - btw, it’s called peripheral vision.
C) Tesla always puts safety first. To suggest otherwise is drama queen mode or not paying attention to the dozens of examples of proof if that
D) Relax. Everyone. All you have to do is wait an hour, or in this case a day and Tesla will correct it. Elon’s already is on it.
If a car drives uncomfortable that does not help with safety. For example, when I drive for hours I get back pain. When I have those pains I noticed I tend to focus my attention on how I sit. I fiddle with the seat, etc, etc. It takes away attention from the road. The whole reason we forbid driving and operating cellphones is that they distract. For that reason it is also not allowed to eat while driving in some countries (for example, UK). Oh, and you're also not allowed to write your latest book while driving.
But now we have a car that is demanding attention 4 times a minute and that is suddenly okay and only meant to ensure my safety? come on, that isn't going to hold up.
I perfectly understand that the car needs some sort of confirmation that the driver is still alive/not sleeping/having seizure/or whatever so that it can park itself when the driver does not respond. But my car demanding I inform him every 15 seconds I'm still paying attention to its notifications is the opposite of safe driving.
As Elon said himself, it is a trade off. Too much nags and ppl stop using it, too little and people get overly confident. I believe this firmware falls into the 'too much nags, people will stop using it, causing more accidents AP could have prevented' category.
It's crucial to keep in mind, too, that The Nag Dilemma is a product of Tesla's way of "gauging attentiveness". That Tesla has to choose between requesting torque (which is not co-extensive with hands on the wheel or driver attention) more or less frequently with a visual reminder on the screen (which is not co-extensive with line-of-sight of attention) is because that is all they seemingly have to futz with by design.
So when Elon moans about this Scylla and Charybdis, let's not forget he chose the course.
Any one else wonder why people want Tesla to change to their way instead of learning Tesla's?
All systems require some learning. Try speaking unknown words to voice control and it will not work. Turning a knob the wrong way may break it. Pushing on a door that only opens out will not get you in.
Things improve over time, but in the beginning you do what works or don't use the system. The AP torque sense is as good as any system out there IMHO an I have test driven them all.
All systems require some learning. Try speaking unknown words to voice control and it will not work. Turning a knob the wrong way may break it. Pushing on a door that only opens out will not get you in.
Things improve over time, but in the beginning you do what works or don't use the system. The AP torque sense is as good as any system out there IMHO an I have test driven them all.
I understand the Jaguar will still be low volume per year, will actually start shipping at the end of 2018, and with some needed options will be priced at around 100k euros (vat included). I hope it will sell well in Europe, people probably trust the brand. Other manufacturers will be in even later.
In addition to the 2 advantages you mentioned, I think the bigger issue is the battery and drivetrain manufacturing (vertical) integration. In the case of MB, BMW, VW, I have no idea how profitable their setup is, and how much volume they can sustain. It sounds like 2019 will totally be (again) a Tesla year.
TaoJones
Beyond Driven
The key competitive advantage today is the SC network.
For local buyers who don’t care about distance travel via car, there are already and are about to be a lot more choices. These choices will come from companies that have already solved fit, finish and other quality problems.
If you believe that Tesla’s mission was to get people to shift to EVs, then that catalyst has already been delivered - everyone else is now chasing the current leader. However, there is no imperative for Teslas to remain the best choice, and not fixing quality is a fast route to 2nd best or worse in any industry.
The Boring Company will be successful.
SpaceX will continue to be successful.
Tesla Energy has a bright future.
Tesla Motors... well... we’ll see.
It has become more and more difficult in good conscience to recommend the cars without at the very least offering 1 or 2 caveats, and that’s just how it is. Which is a problem for a company that relies so much upon word of mouth and positive press.
For local buyers who don’t care about distance travel via car, there are already and are about to be a lot more choices. These choices will come from companies that have already solved fit, finish and other quality problems.
If you believe that Tesla’s mission was to get people to shift to EVs, then that catalyst has already been delivered - everyone else is now chasing the current leader. However, there is no imperative for Teslas to remain the best choice, and not fixing quality is a fast route to 2nd best or worse in any industry.
The Boring Company will be successful.
SpaceX will continue to be successful.
Tesla Energy has a bright future.
Tesla Motors... well... we’ll see.
It has become more and more difficult in good conscience to recommend the cars without at the very least offering 1 or 2 caveats, and that’s just how it is. Which is a problem for a company that relies so much upon word of mouth and positive press.
