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Rated range loss after 1 year

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by rpavlicek, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. rpavlicek

    rpavlicek ***** Neophyte

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    I'm not sure if there is another thread for this ...if so please merge.

    For the 60kWh, my understanding is the EPA rated range is 208. This winter when max charging at SCs, the maximum was 202 (California, usually not below freezing).

    I've had the car for about 1 year. Did I lose 3% on my battery or are these numbers due to colder weather (or some other factor?). What is the expected rate of loss over time?
     
  2. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    There are several things to consider:

    1. Tesla changes the behaviour of the battery gauge frequently.

    2. If the battery is unbalanced it will show lower SOC than it really has.

    3. Generic LiIon batteries lose 5% the first year and then 1% every year thereafter.

    4. Batteries have less capacity in cold weather.

    5. Roadster owners are getting better battery life than was originally expected.

    So basically, the answer is: Not enough data to form a conclusion.
     
  3. rpavlicek

    rpavlicek ***** Neophyte

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    Thanks for the information!

    Question: How does a battery get unbalanced? What can I do (if anything) to rebalance it?
     
  4. glhs272

    glhs272 Unnamed plug faced villian

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    To balance the pack, do a range charge at 120volts 12amps. Basically a very slow range charge will get the cells back into balance.
     
  5. gaswalla

    gaswalla P4201/85/airsusp/pano/19i

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  6. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    That's because that method requires one to charge that way for quite a long period of time(months), not just one or two times like the people that didn't see any results did.
     
  7. gaswalla

    gaswalla P4201/85/airsusp/pano/19i

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    from zero, it shouldn't take more than 84 hours.. yes, that is a long time, though.
     
  8. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    I meant that one full charge on 120V 12A, is not going to balance the pack completely. It takes many months of charging this way to get it to balance. A quicker way is of course complete range charges, but unless you need the range, is an unnecessary strain on your pack.
     
  9. gaswalla

    gaswalla P4201/85/airsusp/pano/19i

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    yes.. thanks for the clarification... good point about needing many slow, repeated cycles.
     
  10. islandbayy

    islandbayy Active Member

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    I'm at 19000 miles on my 60kW. Range Charge Yields 204 Miles. I do not baby my pack. I use it as I would any other vehicle. I've range charged 60-70 times since getting the car (No point in not if I'm not going to make it home otherwise). I do not leave it sit at range mode. I do 90% charge daily. If it is going to be a long range kind of day, then I range charge 1 hour before going.
    I've had my Model S as of writing this, 7 Months, 2 weeks 8 Hours 54 minutes.

    - - - Updated - - -


    You did not mention how many miles on your vehicle. As for me, The day it was delivered, my Range charge was 209 miles. Now, one note, I have not let my pack balance recently. Usually, when doing a range charge, it will hang on 5minutes or 1 minute remaining for 20 minutes to a hour. I have not had the luxury of letting it complete that charge. When it does that, that is when the pack is getting balanced. So after some balancing, my range might be even better. I do know I have been draining the crap out of my pack lately. Due to the extreme cold (we hit -30*F Beginning of the week for example) and that taking a toll on range (Heater use, pack warmer, cold weather inefficiencies etc.. but mostly pack warmer and heater use), so my car is most likely really out of balance.
    Just dropped it off tonight at Highland Park Service Center due to more water in my tail lights, so my car will finally be out of the cold (It's a driveway car so cold soaked daily), and being nice and warm, I will range charge it their (remote app when the plug er in) and see what I get. Temperature DOES MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE, though, not really until you get below about 32*F is when that difference is noticeable. Example, if my rated range is 204 miles then the car is nice and toasty warm, and I move it outside and let it cold soak, that range will drop down to say, 190, or even have seen as low as 182. But move that car back into a warm heated garage, and watch the range climb back up to 204 as the pack warms from the ambient heat.
     
  11. Iz

    Iz EVs are here to stay

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    Thanks for the great information. I also have a 60kW and have only ranged charged about 6 times to 210 miles. The new "Daily Driver" setting only gets to about 170 miles, which may be impacted by weather or the manner in which rated range is presented. Going to have to do a range charge this weekend and see what the results are. Weather is definitely a factor. I've had the vehicle 10+ months and did not use the heat in March or April. This season it is used. Range takes a double blow between heater use and cold temperatures.
     
  12. apacheguy

    apacheguy Sig 255, VIN 320

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    1. Given that brand new 85's yield >265 miles on a range charge I'm not convinced that the updated range algorithm affects range mode charges. It may have an impact at lower SOC's however.

    2. I've been very confused about this. Isn't Tesla's BMS smart enough to auto-balance the pack after all charge sessions regardless of input voltage? Having a pack out of balance is bad for a number of reasons and Tesla has never recommended that I charge at 120 so it must not be an issue for their BMS.

    Data point: 100% SOC yields 244 rated miles with 22K.
     
  13. Apoclyps

    Apoclyps Member

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    Hrmmmm. When I first got my car, I was able to Range Charge to 206 rated miles. Recently took a road trip using the SCs and was only able to get the car to 199 max.
     
  14. maxbafh

    maxbafh Member

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    The problem I see in the comparison is that the software updates use different algorithms for calculation of the rated range. On the Update between EU 5.4 and 5.8 i lost about 26km of rated range. Full charge on 5.4 showed 525km vs on 5.8 shows only 499km as maximum.
     
  15. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I'm not sure we have a 100% definitive answer on this.


    It does, but it appears that a lower charge rate helps the BMS balance better. I believe the difference is similar to the difference between filling a glass without overflowing from a garden hose as compared to a refrigerator in-door water dispenser. You can get closer to full with out overflowing with the fridge dispenser.
     
  16. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    If one follows Tesla's instructions to set the car to a standard charge, and plug in whenever the car is not in use, the balancing occurs naturally.
     
  17. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

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    *DONT* do this. Trying to range charge at 120v @ 12amps will time a VERY LONG TIME. This means your car will sit at >90% charge for an extended amount of time. This is exactly what you DON'T want to do to your battery, as sitting at MAX or near MAX for an extended period of time is the WORST thing you can to your battery, and will damage it. Just charge like you would normally and let the car balance itself automatically. You can't force it.
     
  18. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    Just as a data point, I did my first ever Range Charge the other day, and my 85 kWh, 10 month old Model S with 18,000 miles reached 246 Rated Miles. About 6 months ago, when the car had roughly half the number of miles on it, I was doing a Range Charge but had to leave before it completed. It was nearly done and I had achieved 260 Rated Miles. It may have got up to 265 if I had left it until it completed, but I cannot be sure.

    I am not sure if this 14 - 19 mile loss is due to battery degradation or whether it has something to do with how the numbers are calculated between different vehicle firmware versions. Since the weather turned cold, I have normally been charging my car to 90% daily and return at the end of the day at about 30%. 90% currently gives me 215 Rated Miles. When the car was new, and I would do a "Standard Charge" I would get 245 Rated Miles.
     
  19. AmpedRealtor

    AmpedRealtor Active Member

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    No changes have been made to the ideal range algorithm, whereas the rated range algorithm seems to change with every software update. To properly assess battery degradation, you should use ideal range because that calculation hasn't changed.
     
  20. Zextraterrestrial

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    #20 Zextraterrestrial, Jan 10, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
    Really? interesting

    v 4.0 - 277r = 312i (100%) (dec'12)
    v 5.6 - 218r = 254i (90%) (october'13)
    v 5.8 - 96r = 110i (47%) (jan '14)
     

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