Raven 100% charge miles decreased

[kevinof]

Let me understand this. There was an update (a software update). They didn't change your battery, or your drive units, just updated the software. Now after that update it's DISPLAYING less range and you're crying foul.

All they are doing is displaying a different number - that doesn't impact your actual range at all. It's simply the cars guess as to what range you will get when you drive it. And by the way - folks in other forums are not reporting a drop in range, they are reporting a drop in the displayed number.

My advice. Go out and drive the damn thing and see how it works in real life and stopping fussing over a number on a screen.

Most of us don't charge to 100% everyday or every week. I only charge mine to 100% when I take a 200+ mile trip. I don't think we should limit ourselves to just 90% just because it's not "healthy" for the battery to charge to 100%.

Anyhow, the issue at hand is not about the actual mileage or rated miles. Folks on all forums are reporting a drop in range at 90% and 100% after a few updates ago. I don't think it's true battery degradation at all. What folks are uneasy about is why Long Range in 3,X,S observed similar drop in range after software updates. Not cool to buy a car rated at 328 to the charge and a month later get 295. Check out some of the battery reports on the S forum, it's pretty disturbing.

 

[kqnjml]

I’m getting less range since the update just like others. There are legitimate lawsuits and complains out there and it’s not about displaying a number. You should read up more instead of insulting others.

Let me understand this. There was an update (a software update). They didn't change your battery, or your drive units, just updated the software. Now after that update it's DISPLAYING less range and you're crying foul.

All they are doing is displaying a different number - that doesn't impact your actual range at all. It's simply the cars guess as to what range you will get when you drive it. And by the way - folks in other forums are not reporting a drop in range, they are reporting a drop in the displayed number.

My advice. Go out and drive the damn thing and see how it works in real life and stopping fussing over a number on a screen.

 

[kevinof]

Ok where is the insult? Please tell me.

I gave you some advice - up to you whether you take the advice or not. My point is the car hasn't changed, it's still got the same battery and charging system as the day you bought it. Batteries don't regrade that quickly so something else is happening.

I’m getting less range since the update just like others. There are legitimate lawsuits and complains out there and it’s not about displaying a number. You should read up more instead of insulting others.

 

[kqnjml]

I guess that’s just how you talk to people. “Crying foul” and “drive the damn thing and stop fussing over a number on the screen” isn’t an insult. I’ll leave it as that.

My point isn’t about the battery problem as I agreed with ohmman in the last post. Yes, it’s probably something else going on as you noted and probably software related. Take a chill pill dude.

Ok where is the insult? Please tell me.

I gave you some advice - up to you whether you take the advice or not. My point is the car hasn't changed, it's still got the same battery and charging system as the day you bought it. Batteries don't regrade that quickly so something else is happening.

 

[jimbo69ny]

I am not following this too closely because I dont think its a real problem but I didnt see an answer to my question.

If you are are charging it to 100% and driving it, what are the real miles you are getting? Not estimates, how many actual miles are you driving down the road?
How fast are you driving? Anything over 60 is going to decrease your range by a significant number.

I suspect that you ARE getting 300 plus miles easy. I have heard of people getting 340 plus miles by driving 55 mph.
If you arent getting 300 plus miles than I suspect you are driving fast.

If you really need the range for your trips, I highly suggest NOT charging to 100%, charging to 90% and slowing down to 55-60mph. It will prolong the life of your battery.

 

[kevinof]

If you are taking "crying foul" as an insult then may I suggest it's you that needs to "Take a chill pill dude."

I'm done here. Bye.

I guess that’s just how you talk to people. “Crying foul” and “drive the damn thing and stop fussing over a number on the screen” isn’t an insult. I’ll leave it as that.

My point isn’t about the battery problem as I agreed with ohmman in the last post. Yes, it’s probably something else going on as you noted and probably software related. Take a chill pill dude.

 

[kqnjml]

I actually do not get even close to 300 miles range more like in the 280 and low 290. I've been reluctant to push the range limit and charging the car once I'm down to 60 miles.

I am not following this too closely because I dont think its a real problem but I didnt see an answer to my question.

If you are are charging it to 100% and driving it, what are the real miles you are getting? Not estimates, how many actual miles are you driving down the road?
How fast are you driving? Anything over 60 is going to decrease your range by a significant number.

I suspect that you ARE getting 300 plus miles easy. I have heard of people getting 340 plus miles by driving 55 mph.
If you arent getting 300 plus miles than I suspect you are driving fast.

If you really need the range for your trips, I highly suggest NOT charging to 100%, charging to 90% and slowing down to 55-60mph. It will prolong the life of your battery.

I am not following this too closely because I dont think its a real problem but I didnt see an answer to my question.

If you are are charging it to 100% and driving it, what are the real miles you are getting? Not estimates, how many actual miles are you driving down the road?
How fast are you driving? Anything over 60 is going to decrease your range by a significant number.

I suspect that you ARE getting 300 plus miles easy. I have heard of people getting 340 plus miles by driving 55 mph.
If you arent getting 300 plus miles than I suspect you are driving fast.

If you really need the range for your trips, I highly suggest NOT charging to 100%, charging to 90% and slowing down to 55-60mph. It will prolong the life of your battery.

 

[ohmman]

I actually do not get even close to 300 miles range more like in the 280 and low 290. I've been reluctant to push the range limit and charging the car once I'm down to 60 miles.

It should be easy enough to qualify whether you're consuming more or less than the rated range by looking at your Wh/mi figure on those trips. I don't know what the Raven Wh/mi rated figure is, but someone here must. I'm guessing it's 310Wh/mi or lower, because my 90D rated consumption is 320Wh/mi. Anything over that and I get less range. Under that, and I get more range.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I actually do not get even close to 300 miles range more like in the 280 and low 290. I've been reluctant to push the range limit and charging the car once I'm down to 60 miles.

Low 290 sounds awfully close to 300 miles to me. We've gotten over 600 miles on a Model 3. I bet if you slowed down just a bit, you could easily hit 300 on an X.

 

[ajdelange]

How do I check the range on my Model X?

 

[Gwgan]

How do I check the range on my Model X?

Range is such an enigmatic thing. What is it you really want to know?
Charge, drive, measure, but that will only give you the range under those conditions.
After doing the above, charge slowly and measure to see the actual battery capacity (Bjorn method).
Or tell the car to navigate to some destination and check the energy graph on the center screen to see a predicted range based either on recent driving or an instantaneous value. Watching the later will demonstrate just how variable range can be.

 

[ajdelange]

The question was meant to be rhetorical. The answer is I can't determine the range I will achieve under any particular set of circumstances. The displayed "range" is actually a proxy for the SoC of the battery. Lot's of drivers really aren't at ease with this kWh stuff. So the question really becomes "How do I check the SoC on my X?" That is a non trivial question and the answer is somewhat arbitrary. Full capacity is defined as the charge that must be transferred into s battery in order to raise its open circuit voltage from one rather arbitrary value (around 3.4 V/cell?) to some other rather arbitrary value (4.2 V/cell ?). Full capacity is detected when the OC voltage is at the upper value. The battery is defined as being empty (0 charge) when its voltage is at the lower limit. In fact it can be charged above the upper limit and discharged below the lower limit (both to the detriment of longevity) and there is often discussion here as to how much "hidden buffer" in included in the battery display algorithms. The main point here is that Telsa can change the limit voltages at its whim. The motivation to raise the lower voltage is that there is a buffer - you can continue to drive past 0 SoC. But doing this would deduct from "range". There is motivation to raise the upper limit too as this would increase "range", as would lowering the lower limit but both of these would be to the detriment of battery life (and reduce buffering). Thus I expect that Tesla is constantly studying battery performance and fudging these limits in order to prolong battery life and improve buffering while still staying compliant with the EPA protocol regarding EPA range specification.

Given the above, how do we measure SoC? The first thing we need to do is determine the "capacity" of the battery in ampere hours. That is done by adding some charge and dividing the change in observed voltage by the charge (integral of current over the charge time) required to bring about that voltage change. This is an estimate of the slope of the battery voltage vs charge curve. That slope is then divided by the slope of a battery at the same voltage with unit capacity. This requires knowing the charge characteristics of the battery, of course. The ratio is the capacity of our battery. If kWh are confusing enough to users coulombs or ampere hours would be more confusing still so we first convert the capacity in those units to kWh and then, using the rated Wh/mi, to miles of range at 100% charge. Remember that capacity is defined as the charge of a full (100%) battery relative to the empty voltage. Converting charge to kWh is a matter of finding the area under the voltage vs charge curve between the 0 and 100% points and then multiplying by the capacity.

If you use Stats or TeslaFi you will see a whole history of range numbers for your car accumulated over time. You will note that there is substantial variation in these estimates. That's because SoC is not very "observable" through cell voltage (i.e. cell voltage doesn't change much with charge - that's why they want you to discharge to a low voltage and charge to a high one to "calibrate" the process). I have completely left out things having to do with charge rates, temperatures etc. These are things that must be corrected for and only add to the difficulty in making good measurements.

With all this there is little wonder that 100% battery range estimates can be all over the map both for one's own car and over the fleet.

I should finalize by saying that I do not know that the method I have sketched is the one Tesla uses. It seems a reasonable approach given what one has to observe (current and cell voltage) but there are many ways to use those observables.

 

[DCGOO]

The question was meant to be rhetorical. The answer is I can't determine the range I will achieve under any particular set of circumstances. The displayed "range" is actually a proxy for the SoC of the battery. Lot's of drivers really aren't at ease with this kWh stuff. So the question really becomes "How do I check the SoC on my X?"

Why don't you just set the car to DISPLAY the SoC in the display? It is a configurable option.

 

[DoubleE]

This is the primary reason I leave my car on % instead of miles.

Even with it on miles, it's never accurate based on driving conditions, sentry on, etc.

 

[ajdelange]

Why don't you just set the car to DISPLAY the SoC in the display? It is a configurable option.

But I do! Makes things much simpler. 100 kWhr battery 47% full means how much charge is in it? 300 mi (approximately) rated range means I can go, nominally, how far when the battery indicates 47%. I've been told on this site that's much too complicated (I'm not kidding) but it works for me.

 

[DCGOO]

But I do! Makes things much simpler. 100 kWhr battery 47% full means how much charge is in it? 300 mi (approximately) rated range means I can go, nominally, how far when the battery indicates 47%. I've been told on this site that's much too complicated (I'm not kidding) but it works for me.

Get the accurate estimate from energy display (big screen). It is based upon actual usage. It cannot predict the future obviously, but if your future is similar to your past, it is accurate. If you are navigating, that will also tell you if you can make it.

 

[jboy210]

This

How fast are you driving? Anything over 60 is going to decrease your range by a significant number.

 

[ajdelange]

Get the accurate estimate from energy display (big screen). It is based upon actual usage. It cannot predict the future obviously, but if your future is similar to your past, it is accurate. If you are navigating, that will also tell you if you can make it.

This may come as a bit of a surprise to you but I actually do that too if I want the most accurate estimates. But in general I find it unnecessary as with a little experience I have learned what "English" to put on the simple estimates I mentioned above.

It is entertaining, however, to watch the progress on the energy display (trip mode) as the miles roll by. And the prudent driver will check that screen once and a while just to make sure he isn't in (or has been in) an unplanned for head wind, for example.

 

[strider]

Why don't you just set the car to DISPLAY the SoC in the display? It is a configurable option.

I don't have a dog in this fight but would this help if in fact the battery is losing capacity? Say you started w/ a 100kWh battery. It was then radically abused such that its usable capacity was down to 90kWh. If you did a 100% charge, would the dash read 100% or would it read 90%?

 

[ajdelange]

I'm not sure there is a fight here. It's the obvious thing to do but some people aren't comfortable with it and prefer the miles display. Its similar to the ICE situation except that instead of E there the gauge is labeled 0%, instead of F it is labeled 100% and the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 marks are labeled, respectively, 25%, 50%, and 75%. As ICE manufacturers have been interpreting that data as Range in fancier cars for years it's clear that Tesla would want to do that too with the big difference being that gasoline's energy content doesn't decrasae as you car ages.

Right now it's trivially simple to get an answer because I get about 3 miles per percent. As the battery ages I will get less than that. At 10% loss of battery capacity I'll be getting 2.9. I'll be aware of that becuase I check my battery health frequently. So if I have 47% remaining I'll still multiply by 3 to get 141 and then knock 14 miles off that to get about 127. That takes a little more mental effort than it does when the magic number is 3. If I don't feel like making that extra effort when the time comes I will just switch over to the detailed display.

"I prefer another way" is a perfectly valid response to the "Why don't you just...?" type of question and that's why Tesla gives us options. If using percent were the best option for everyone always the alternatives wouldn't be offered. If you have a clever way to do something let us know for sure but don't expect everyone to come round to your way of thinking.