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Real World Heat Pump Effect

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Heat pump outside condensers freeze and/or clog up for example.

Like @MP3Mike said: it can only freeze if you use it. And while you likely uses condenser to mean the outside unit, when in a heat pump mode, the outdoor heat exchanger is an evaporator. The simple version of the Tesla system does not have an ambient evaporator.

"There is no situation where the compressor cannot run." :confused::p Joker.

There isn't.
 
Anyone taken a Model Y out into the cold yet (say around 0 C) and driven at highway speeds, say 70 or 75 mph? What is energy consumption? My Model 3 LR AWD is regularly at 350 Wh/mile or more in such situations.
And test it both on and off so we can see the impact.

You'll have to wait for the cabin to equalize before comparing otherwise it will not be apples to apples.
 
It doesn’t look like you’ll get much benefits out of it. Probably a COP of 2 max when you most need it. It looks like around 50F is when it’s really efficient, which probably is warm enough for just heated seats and a light jacket.

Don’t get me wrong, COP of 2 is a benefit, but I wouldn’t expect huge range gains with this. 20 to 30F when you really are taxing the heat it’ll probably be fairly close to 1. I guess every little bit helps, but I don’t think this will be like “no noticeable range reduction” or anything.

Curious if you still get almost instantaneous heat out of it...
 
It doesn’t look like you’ll get much benefits out of it. Probably a COP of 2 max when you most need it. It looks like around 50F is when it’s really efficient, which probably is warm enough for just heated seats and a light jacket.

Don’t get me wrong, COP of 2 is a benefit, but I wouldn’t expect huge range gains with this. 20 to 30F when you really are taxing the heat it’ll probably be fairly close to 1. I guess every little bit helps, but I don’t think this will be like “no noticeable range reduction” or anything.

Curious if you still get almost instantaneous heat out of it...
Yeah, when it is really cold, 1-2.

Per the patent: The system runs both the cabin evaporator and condensor at the same time while adding in compressor heating and the LV heaters to get the refrigerant loop up to a more effective temp quickly. That should allow fast cabin heat up.

The patent also calls out preconditioning where it starts heating the pack an hour before the trip. Then when you get in, it can use that stored heat to quickly warm the cabin.
 
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You are absolutely wrong. I have 5+ years of experience with automotive HP at wide range of temperatures. And lately had sensor failure as a reference "how much worse will it be with regular PTC".

EDIT: quote: "20-30F" - mongo -yeah when really cold.
Yea...really...really cold.
 
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You are absolutely wrong. I have 5+ years of experience with automotive HP at wide range of temperatures. And lately had sensor failure as a reference "how much worse will it be with regular PTC".

EDIT: quote: "20-30F" - mongo -yeah when really cold.
Yea...really...really cold.

What/who is absolutely wrong?
@acarney and I are referring to the plot in post #55 of Tesla's system showing 1-2 in the +10 to -10 C range 50F to 14F range. Above that it may get up to COP of 5. Below that is the range where frosting could occur, so they are being conservative.

It also appears based on Elon's Octovalve Tweet, that the system is one of the more complex ones where the radiator is used as the ambient exchanger.
heatPump_complex.PNG

The value only switches coolant:
octovalve.PNG
 
That cabin pre-conditioning really only works when at home and plugged in. This won’t help when leaving work (if you don’t have a plug), leaving a store or something where the car dropped to ambient temps (30+ minutes in winter), apartment/condo dwellers, when leaving a hotel without a plug, or anywhere else in the real world without a plug. Again any extra efficiency is great, but if you’re heating up hundreds of pounds of mass for an HOUR you’re burning a lot of energy before even rolling a mile. I feel like Tesla could tweak the Model 3 via software to heat the battery when plugged in and preconditioning (if temps are below 30F or something) to heat the mass of the vehicle. I thought Model 3 harvested some heat from the motors or pack coolant loop but even if it didn’t, if you had full regen because of a hot pack then you might recover enough energy initially to offset that heating.

Again, I think any improvement is good, but please adjust your expectations for a slight improvement, not “practically no penalty” for using heat when you actually need it, 30F and below. The Model 3 has amazing heated seats, some of the most powerful and I think down to 50F most people probably are fine with just heated seats or maybe a small amount of heat added.

I look it as the same as someone that gets the most efficient heat pump for their house expecting to see energy usage in January drop by half or more and then is puzzled when resistance heating is used because it’s 25 F outside... this is even more true when it’s an old house with poor insulation, even when at temp a heat pump might not be able to keep up with the heat lost due to poor insulation. I doubt the Model Y has much extra insulation compared to the 3. Turn the heat off in your 3 when it’s 20 to 30F outside and watch how fast the cabin temp starts to drop. There is a large heat demand to maintain...

Trust me, good on Musk & his engineers, but adjust your expectations.
 
That cabin pre-conditioning really only works when at home and plugged in. This won’t help when leaving work (if you don’t have a plug), leaving a store or something where the car dropped to ambient temps (30+ minutes in winter), apartment/condo dwellers, when leaving a hotel without a plug, or anywhere else in the real world without a plug. Again any extra efficiency is great, but if you’re heating up hundreds of pounds of mass for an HOUR you’re burning a lot of energy before even rolling a mile. I feel like Tesla could tweak the Model 3 via software to heat the battery when plugged in and preconditioning (if temps are below 30F or something) to heat the mass of the vehicle. I thought Model 3 harvested some heat from the motors or pack coolant loop but even if it didn’t, if you had full regen because of a hot pack then you might recover enough energy initially to offset that heating.

Again, I think any improvement is good, but please adjust your expectations for a slight improvement, not “practically no penalty” for using heat when you actually need it, 30F and below. The Model 3 has amazing heated seats, some of the most powerful and I think down to 50F most people probably are fine with just heated seats or maybe a small amount of heat added.

I look it as the same as someone that gets the most efficient heat pump for their house expecting to see energy usage in January drop by half or more and then is puzzled when resistance heating is used because it’s 25 F outside... this is even more true when it’s an old house with poor insulation, even when at temp a heat pump might not be able to keep up with the heat lost due to poor insulation. I doubt the Model Y has much extra insulation compared to the 3. Turn the heat off in your 3 when it’s 20 to 30F outside and watch how fast the cabin temp starts to drop. There is a large heat demand to maintain...

Trust me, good on Musk & his engineers, but adjust your expectations.
I'm confused, the only time i can find "practically no penalty" in this thread is your post.
I'm not sure who you are addressing, or what you are arguing against.
The patent directly addresses that heating the pack is pointless for many trips due to its thermal mass (85Wh/C or so).

To be clear, my main issues with automotive heat pumps are low temp efficency, frost over, and additional cost. I like the Tesla system because it doesn't try to make a heat pump that has a high COP at sub freezing temps. Instead, they cost optimized the entire system, eliminated redundancies, and produced something that may actually cost less, may have lower repair costs in a front collision, and gives an efficency gain in some more frequent weather conditions.
 
Sorry to bump an old thread... are we possibly overlooking the impacts of a car in motion and not just the stationary temperature? I ask, because while a home's HVAC system might use a heat pump with greater than 100% efficiency down to X Fahrenheit, it depends a lot on the amount of air flow you have. On the highway, traveling at 70 mph, your ability to expose a lot of air volume to the surface area exchanging heat could make it more beneficial than normal, right? Still, at a certain temperature, there's not going to be any benefit.
 
That cabin pre-conditioning really only works when at home and plugged in. This won’t help when leaving work (if you don’t have a plug), leaving a store or something where the car dropped to ambient temps (30+ minutes in winter), apartment/condo dwellers, when leaving a hotel without a plug, or anywhere else in the real world without a plug. Again any extra efficiency is great, but if you’re heating up hundreds of pounds of mass for an HOUR you’re burning a lot of energy before even rolling a mile. I feel like Tesla could tweak the Model 3 via software to heat the battery when plugged in and preconditioning (if temps are below 30F or something) to heat the mass of the vehicle. I thought Model 3 harvested some heat from the motors or pack coolant loop but even if it didn’t, if you had full regen because of a hot pack then you might recover enough energy initially to offset that heating.

Again, I think any improvement is good, but please adjust your expectations for a slight improvement, not “practically no penalty” for using heat when you actually need it, 30F and below. The Model 3 has amazing heated seats, some of the most powerful and I think down to 50F most people probably are fine with just heated seats or maybe a small amount of heat added.

I look it as the same as someone that gets the most efficient heat pump for their house expecting to see energy usage in January drop by half or more and then is puzzled when resistance heating is used because it’s 25 F outside... this is even more true when it’s an old house with poor insulation, even when at temp a heat pump might not be able to keep up with the heat lost due to poor insulation. I doubt the Model Y has much extra insulation compared to the 3. Turn the heat off in your 3 when it’s 20 to 30F outside and watch how fast the cabin temp starts to drop. There is a large heat demand to maintain...

Trust me, good on Musk & his engineers, but adjust your expectations.
I wonder why they haven't done this? Seems like an easy thermal mass that they can put heat into and provide comfort to the riders.
 
I wonder why they haven't done this? Seems like an easy thermal mass that they can put heat into and provide comfort to the riders.
The heat pump patent mentions doing this. Heat pack from cabin, then cabin from pack. It doesn't make sense on the 3 since everything is currently resistively heated, the pack thermal mass is huge, and there is no path to get heat from the pack to the cabin.

Sorry to bump an old thread... are we possibly overlooking the impacts of a car in motion and not just the stationary temperature? I ask, because while a home's HVAC system might use a heat pump with greater than 100% efficiency down to X Fahrenheit, it depends a lot on the amount of air flow you have. On the highway, traveling at 70 mph, your ability to expose a lot of air volume to the surface area exchanging heat could make it more beneficial than normal, right? Still, at a certain temperature, there's not going to be any benefit.

Yeah, the more air across the exchanger, the lower the needed temperature delta (or the smaller the exchanger). Home HP move a lot of air though, and there is a trade off due to the pressure delta across the exchanger creating more drag.
 
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining it. Maybe battery day will give us more detail in case the S and X get the heat pump. I expect it’s too early for the model 3, but never know. The heated charge port could also be a nice benefit that spreads beyond the Y.
 
I ask, because while a home's HVAC system might use a heat pump with greater than 100% efficiency down to X Fahrenheit, it depends a lot on the amount of air flow you have. On the highway, traveling at 70 mph, your ability to expose a lot of air volume to the surface area exchanging heat could make it more beneficial than normal, right? Still, at a certain temperature, there's not going to be any benefit.

Split-type reversible inverter HVAC system has MASSIVE heat exchanger (outside). I estimate around 4-5 more surface area.
Cars do compensate with either more fan power or travelling at high speed but unfortunately stationary systems, due to
no size constraints, are more efficient that automotive systems. Though they both get excellent results, between 300-450%.
 
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