Realist gets Real ;-)

[EarlyAdopter]

I've noticed that the circulation pumps in my P85D are louder - WAY louder - at max than the pumps in my old P85. When the car wakes up and the pumps initially spool up to max, they sound like jet turbines now. I'm wondering if maybe, just maybe, Tesla increased flow capacity to help with power limit overheating on the track. Fingers crossed. I won't be able to put it to the test until the first club track days here, which are in March.

 

[WarpedOne]

Tesla has a patent for running coolant through the motor shaft. It is rumored to be in the Model S, although I have doubts, but even if it is I'm not sure how effective it could be given the constraints.

Tesla has confirmed they are cooling the rotor by running cooling liquid straight through the shaft i.e. it is hollow.
I don't have the quote by hand but it is here on TMC.

 

[Realist]

Welcome. I'm curious, what changed your mind? All off the drawbacks you pointed out are sell there also slightly lessened with the D.

I just want to feel how this baby works, simply because it is entirely different to anything I ever had.

The BMW i8 is an engineering marvel. The best things about the car are the chassis and that 3 cycl. engine in the back. The performance and refinement are stunning. I am also amazed by the constant power delivery. You can hunt this car and it will not give up because it’s ICE will always charge the battery. This concept is the future. For now.

I cannot judge the P85D until I haven’t actually owned one. I want to know how this works in the real world for an enthusiast like me. Can an electric car really be an alternative? Is it really “game over” for the ICE? To me the P85D is the first real contender because it shows the advantages of an electric car even in dynamical terms. Low center of gravity, ultimate torque vectoring, instant delivery. The real disadvantage is the weight, but let’s just see how the Model S can cope with that.

 

[JRP3]

In the Roadster we actually have temperature readouts, and at the track it's definitely the motor that overheats first.

The Model S is a larger and more refined version of the Roadster drive train, but it's essentially the same design.

Actually it's a completely different design since the Roadster motor is air cooled and the S motor is liquid cooled. The S motor also has a large, hollow, rotor shaft, which along with Tesla's rotor cooling patents leads me to believe it's also liquid cooled.

 

[jerjozwik]

I won't be able to put it to the test until the first club track days here, which are in March.

i am VERY excited to hear your impressions then.

 

[Doug_G]

Actually it's a completely different design since the Roadster motor is air cooled and the S motor is liquid cooled. The S motor also has a large, hollow, rotor shaft, which along with Tesla's rotor cooling patents leads me to believe it's also liquid cooled.

I wouldn't call it "completely different" just because they've improved the cooling. Hollow shafts are stronger for the same weight, so that might not be the only reason. Sealing the shaft while rotating at high RPM and keeping fluid running through it must be a bit of a trick.

I was disappointed at the track endurance of the Model S compared to the Roadster. I expected it to be better, due to the improved cooling systems, but instead it is much worse. It does however cool down much more rapidly once you get off the track. You can pull off into the pits for 10 minutes and head back out again. The Roadster needs an hour to cool down that much.

So my impression is that the overall cooling is better, but it is no better at handling peak load. The Model S drive train is scaled up in power, of course.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I'm a little surprised a Realist wouldn't wait until more of the stuff Tesla says is coming (155mph maximum speed, better seats, torque sleep, EU TACC, other AutoPilot) has actually arrived.

Looking forward to some good feedback (with pictures).

 

[chickensevil]

Teardown- Tesla 2013 Model S - IHS Technology

At about 6:15 into the second video they pull apart the motor. The best you get is the "mystery goo" on all the electronics and such. I don't particularly see evidence of cooling tubes/piping/or otherwise but maybe someone else in the know would have better knowledge.

This could be different now given that they have changed things up a bit with their new motor production line, but should give a decent starting place to seeing the inside of the motor.

 

[JRP3]

I wouldn't call it "completely different" just because they've improved the cooling.

There is only so much you can change in AC motor design, so in that context I'd say changing to a liquid cooling jacket and a redesigned rotor, liquid cooled or not, is pretty significant.

Hollow shafts are stronger for the same weight, so that might not be the only reason. Sealing the shaft while rotating at high RPM and keeping fluid running through it must be a bit of a trick.

I wouldn't think any trickier than the seals in an automatic transmission which operates at much higher pressure.

I was disappointed at the track endurance of the Model S compared to the Roadster. I expected it to be better, due to the improved cooling systems, but instead it is much worse. It does however cool down much more rapidly once you get off the track. You can pull off into the pits for 10 minutes and head back out again. The Roadster needs an hour to cool down that much.

That might be the result of the liquid cooling for the motor allowing heat to be extracted when parked, where the air cooled Roadster motor can't. If the liquid cooling can cool the motor faster at rest then I would think it should be able to cool better during operation if the heat exchangers were capable. Super cooled fluid might enable that.

 

[Denarius]

I look forward to reading your impressions and comments once you've been behind the wheel of your D Realist.

 

[AudubonB]

I'm impressed with your openness but also just a little confused at your rationale, Realist. Did you write that you are getting rid of your i8 because you're suspecting its resale value down the road will be lower, as a result of greater sales (thus the potential of a market-flooding price damper)?

Can such a possibility really be a strong enough motive to sell a car you enjoy?

 

[SFOTurtle]

Is this for reals? Realist in a Tesla?!? Wows

 

[rolosrevenge]

Dry ice didn't work on the Model S for MotorTrend, not sure what kind of modifications would...

Ref:
2013 Tesla Model S P85+ Long-Term Update 4 - Motor Trend

Pouring liquid nitrogen on it...

 

[Realist]

I'm impressed with your openness but also just a little confused at your rationale, Realist. Did you write that you are getting rid of your i8 because you're suspecting its resale value down the road will be lower, as a result of greater sales (thus the potential of a market-flooding price damper)?

Can such a possibility really be a strong enough motive to sell a car you enjoy?

Yes of course. The i8 is not the only car I drive. I like to change my vehicles. Only car I have kept now für 4 years is the Lotus Evora. Best Handling car ever made.

 

[thelastdeadmouse]

I'm impressed with your openness but also just a little confused at your rationale, Realist. Did you write that you are getting rid of your i8 because you're suspecting its resale value down the road will be lower, as a result of greater sales (thus the potential of a market-flooding price damper)?

Can such a possibility really be a strong enough motive to sell a car you enjoy?

Unless he paid a massive dealer premium, he can probably sell his car right now for a tidy profit which probably won't be possible down the line. If an i8 driver in interested in a P85D, now's the time to switch.

 

[VolkerP]

I cannot judge the P85D until I haven’t actually owned one. I want to know how this works in the real world for an enthusiast like me. Can an electric car really be an alternative? Is it really “game over” for the ICE? To me the P85D is the first real contender because it shows the advantages of an electric car even in dynamical terms. Low center of gravity, ultimate torque vectoring, instant delivery. The real disadvantage is the weight, but let’s just see how the Model S can cope with that.

As a consequence, you should order your P85D with the most basic set of options. No pano roof, no audio package, no Doppellader. Get the new seats of course. The tech package won't add much weight. Might be a track worthy car, but will have diminished resale value.

 

[Realist]

The car is in production, delivery in 4 weeks!

I really hope Tesla will release that 250kph upgrade before the car arrives at my garage!

 

[PeterW]

That is good news; you must be looking forward to getting the car and seeing how well a Tesla suits you. I am looking forward to your reports

 

[MartinAustin]

The car is in production, delivery in 4 weeks!

I really hope Tesla will release that 250kph upgrade before the car arrives at my garage!

Hi Realist, thanks for doing this comparison. I hope you can incorporate the Tesla's cargo capacity and utility into your evauation, since the i8 has so little. The Model S is a great car because of the sum of all its parts, and track performance isn't necessarily that strong, but overall, it will hopefully still impress you!

I look forward to seeing your Nordschleife run on Youtube

 

[Realist]

I got the car last week. Done 900km so far. P85D, Black, 21Wheels, all Options but no piano roof

I am deeply impressed by the improvements over the first p85+ I tried in Dez. 2013. This car feels way more refined, simply better in every way. It's very smooth, charging works excellent,no problems so far. This is a very well engineered car now.

After the first days with the Tesla it becomes clear that this car really comes from a different world. It's entirely different to the i8. The Model S wants to be an everyday car. Usability is excellent, comfort is good, it's easy to drive and the drivetrain is truly unique.

The i8 is much more a conventional GT supercar yet with unbelievable efficiency and a truly remarkable drivetrain as well. Apart from the P85D's super launch it's a lot faster. Above 60mph it will smoke the Tesla regardless SoC. Anyway I am not complaining about that, as the i8 is not nearly as practical AND it's actually closer to a classic ICE in the way it feels and reacts. It's still got a 3 cycl. in the back.

Therefore the Tesla is indeed in it's own league. It's just not really a performance car. If you want that, get a Porsche turbo.

Nevertheless I will attack the Nordschleife in this thing just to see what its capable of.