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Just adding my two bits in here for data-aggregation purposes.
I have the rear jumpseats. Definitely too hot -- and too strong a sun -- back there as delivered from the factory. Tesla definitely needed to add both A/C vents and a 12-volt power socket back there, and it's a design oversight that they didn't. Given the heat and the humidity of Miami summers, the rear-facing seats were unusable from 10am to 4pm. I added 3M Crystalline 50 to all four side windows and the rear hatch, and it definitely helps... but still, the rear jumpseats are only good for 15-minute trips or so because the sun's glare and heat just gets too unpleasant and the kids complain.
I've tried every suggestion made by Tesla, and they're somewhat useful but not greatly. The real solution is to get A/C ducted all the way back there, I can't think of any other option. (And yes, we need a 12-volt power socket too for fans or whatnot.)
For Alpha's purposes, I'm in Miami FL with VIN 6649.
I have the rear jumpseats. Definitely too hot -- and too strong a sun -- back there as delivered from the factory. Tesla definitely needed to add both A/C vents and a 12-volt power socket back there, and it's a design oversight that they didn't. Given the heat and the humidity of Miami summers, the rear-facing seats were unusable from 10am to 4pm. I added 3M Crystalline 50 to all four side windows and the rear hatch, and it definitely helps... but still, the rear jumpseats are only good for 15-minute trips or so because the sun's glare and heat just gets too unpleasant and the kids complain.
I've tried every suggestion made by Tesla, and they're somewhat useful but not greatly. The real solution is to get A/C ducted all the way back there, I can't think of any other option. (And yes, we need a 12-volt power socket too for fans or whatnot.)
For Alpha's purposes, I'm in Miami FL with VIN 6649.
huntjo
Member
I remember being pretty dang hot in the way-back of the station wagon making summer road trips as a kid. I grew up in Houston, and we drove all over the southwest, southeast, and northwest. This was before they invented those little Sponge-bob retractable window shades. I don't recall my folks ever suing Oldsmoblie. I'm sure if I got too hot they just moved me up to the next row. If the sun was on the left side, we stuck a t-shirt in the window on that side as a curtain.
I think it would be great if Tesla can figure out a retrofit that makes it tolerable in 120 degree Arizona summer, but honestly what car is perfectly comfortable at 120 degrees? I do not think this is a safety thing to bring up to NTHSA, because unlike a faulty seat belt or something, you can just assess: Oh hey, my kid is too hot, I should move him!
I bet they do come up with something like the defroster retrofit that provides better airflow to the 3rd row but people are still going to have to avoid trying to make the car a weather-defying bubble immune to the outside world. Here in Colorado in winter, it's cold; in summer, it's hot. In fall and spring it's nice out. For summer in Houston, you blast your AC to stay even slightly comfy. In North Dakota you bundle up in the winter even with the heat full blast. And the people in the back get less HVAC so you have to check on them. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm fairly sure if your kid gets heatstroke in the car, that's on you, not the company that made the car.
You are correct of course that they overlooked this issue in the design phase. I do not agree that they are obligated to do anything more than their response of suggesting the tinting, using full blast non-recirc air, etc. I do suspect that they will provide a retrofit because they are Tesla and that has been they way they respond to needs like these. I don't expect it to be free but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
The funniest part of all this is the guy who's getting all worked up about it, and doesn't even have the seats installed, lol. Well I guess it's not the funniest part, it's just the only funny part.
Edit: my suggestion for tesla engineers: try just running wiring for additional fans back there rather than a whole duct system. Maybe that will be effective without requiring as much overhaul.
I think it would be great if Tesla can figure out a retrofit that makes it tolerable in 120 degree Arizona summer, but honestly what car is perfectly comfortable at 120 degrees? I do not think this is a safety thing to bring up to NTHSA, because unlike a faulty seat belt or something, you can just assess: Oh hey, my kid is too hot, I should move him!
I bet they do come up with something like the defroster retrofit that provides better airflow to the 3rd row but people are still going to have to avoid trying to make the car a weather-defying bubble immune to the outside world. Here in Colorado in winter, it's cold; in summer, it's hot. In fall and spring it's nice out. For summer in Houston, you blast your AC to stay even slightly comfy. In North Dakota you bundle up in the winter even with the heat full blast. And the people in the back get less HVAC so you have to check on them. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm fairly sure if your kid gets heatstroke in the car, that's on you, not the company that made the car.
You are correct of course that they overlooked this issue in the design phase. I do not agree that they are obligated to do anything more than their response of suggesting the tinting, using full blast non-recirc air, etc. I do suspect that they will provide a retrofit because they are Tesla and that has been they way they respond to needs like these. I don't expect it to be free but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
The funniest part of all this is the guy who's getting all worked up about it, and doesn't even have the seats installed, lol. Well I guess it's not the funniest part, it's just the only funny part.
Edit: my suggestion for tesla engineers: try just running wiring for additional fans back there rather than a whole duct system. Maybe that will be effective without requiring as much overhaul.
Even completely blacked or blocked rear window won't remedy no-air-circulation problem, it will only stretch the time until it becomes to hot.
Mount a fan on the each side of rear bench. If there is not a 12V socket in the rear, route the power from front.
If you feel the problem is big enough to warrant multiple SC visits, mentioning lawsuits, harassing elon and what not, I suggest you spend 10 bucks and fix the problem for yourself.
You can do it in a not-fugly way even without 12V sockets in the back.
After mounting the fans, consider a Rear-Window-Curtain for some additional shadow on your' children faces:
Yes, all these could/should be factory options but they are not and you knew it when you bought the car and rear-facing seats. Now live with it or improve on it.
Mount a fan on the each side of rear bench. If there is not a 12V socket in the rear, route the power from front.
If you feel the problem is big enough to warrant multiple SC visits, mentioning lawsuits, harassing elon and what not, I suggest you spend 10 bucks and fix the problem for yourself.
You can do it in a not-fugly way even without 12V sockets in the back.
After mounting the fans, consider a Rear-Window-Curtain for some additional shadow on your' children faces:
Yes, all these could/should be factory options but they are not and you knew it when you bought the car and rear-facing seats. Now live with it or improve on it.
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Definitely was a design miss but think huntjo has it right. Running some kind of power back there so people can install fans likely all they can do with the current generation Model S. Hope they are working on some way to get a vent back there for the next revision.
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I know this is a sensitive topic and I'm not a Tesla apologist but I don't understand how someone could look at those seats and not think that they would get hot? Even with a coating on the hatch glass, it's a terrarium back there and there are no vents to bring air to that part of the car. I'm also surprised that people took the sales associates word on things without doing some independent checking (or thinking). I think there was a big push to get people to order the jump seats so there was probably some over zealous sales efforts. One sales associate really pushed me hard on this point citing "resale value" and versatility. She wouldn't shut up about it. I finally told her I thought they were a gimmick and any discussion of resale value is just an opinion at this point. She took the hint. When ever a sales person pushes hard on something like that, my first thought is "sales incentives". Perhaps I'm being insensitive but there is never a substitute for being thoughtful about your purchases.
By the way, I took Martini's point to be "it seems unlikely there will be a fix", not "Tesla is perfect, no changes needed". Even if they wanted to, I don't see how there could be a retrofit improvement that isn't hugely expensive for Tesla. Plus, I also agree with his point "Caveat Emptor" - Latin for Buyer Beware. Sage advice for purchases large and small.
By the way, I took Martini's point to be "it seems unlikely there will be a fix", not "Tesla is perfect, no changes needed". Even if they wanted to, I don't see how there could be a retrofit improvement that isn't hugely expensive for Tesla. Plus, I also agree with his point "Caveat Emptor" - Latin for Buyer Beware. Sage advice for purchases large and small.
While I generally agree with caveat emptor, it simply didn't occur to me to question the adequacy of the airflow back there. I ordered the kids seats in November 2012. While there were mock-ups in the showroom, there were no working models at the time.
In hindsight I should have inspected to see whether there were any rear vents. Heck, I probably should have tested the strength of the backseat ducts (airflow through those ducts is weaker than the main stack and I think this is part of the explanation why Tesla's fix doesn't work terribly well).
That being said, most of the car is so well designed that I'm surprised they got some of the little things wrong. I had assumed that given the design/engineering pedigree that a lot of these types of issues would have been thought of. I also had assumed that given Elon's personal statements on the rear seats in particular that everything had been thought of.
I realize these are all early adopter complaints and I'm optimistic that Tesla will at least fix them on future iterations. I'm hopeful that they can also do something for us early adopters.
In hindsight I should have inspected to see whether there were any rear vents. Heck, I probably should have tested the strength of the backseat ducts (airflow through those ducts is weaker than the main stack and I think this is part of the explanation why Tesla's fix doesn't work terribly well).
That being said, most of the car is so well designed that I'm surprised they got some of the little things wrong. I had assumed that given the design/engineering pedigree that a lot of these types of issues would have been thought of. I also had assumed that given Elon's personal statements on the rear seats in particular that everything had been thought of.
I realize these are all early adopter complaints and I'm optimistic that Tesla will at least fix them on future iterations. I'm hopeful that they can also do something for us early adopters.
So you're basically saying it's the consumer's problem and Tesla has no responsibility here whatsoever? That's like telling someone with a broken pano roof that they should have inspected the mechanism before buying to determine whether the mechanism was adequate enough, and now that the pano roof is broken, stop whining about it and tape it together as best you can. That is what you are saying, just applied to a different part of the vehicle.
Not cool.
I take exception to the "caveat emptor" excuse. I asked (repeatedly) about heat problems for these seats and Tesla representatives repeatedly assured me that wouldn't be a problem. Are we not supposed to trust them on this, then pray tell what can we trust them on - anything? When their information turns out to be wildly inaccurate, as in this case, we are not supposed to request recourse and solutions, because "we should have known better" or do independent checking on a car setup that was not available at time of ordering (in my case).
I also think power outlets for fans we have to go buy somewhere would be a substandard solution. Tesla sold us the car with this as a viable and usable option and should be able to make it so. I could afford this car, but I certainly don't blow $1500 and don't worry about it, there are other things I could have used that for (plus these seats was one of the selling points for me).
The only proper recourse here would be to retrofit the cars with ventilation ducts for the rear seats and pano roof style tinting. Full stop.
I don't know what a retrofit would cost Tesla, but apparently not a large percentage of customers bought these seats so it should be limited. Tesla has owned up to mistakes before and made it right, I expect them to do that this time too - and not stop at a lame email with a climate control screenshot...
Bottom line: The seats may be for kids, but they should get the same comfort and care as the adults.
I agree - there is so much they got right. The addition of a power outlet for a fan or two may be the net result and may make the seats more tolerable. Personally, I think a power outlet in the trunk area is a big omission so that would help more than just the seat issue.
callmesam
Member
"seats that are totally unusable." is HYPERBOLE.
The seats are just not totally useable. :cursing:
We each can choose how much to believe something a sales person is saying. I personally always take what they say with a large grain of salt and try to think it through on my own or do my own research. I couldn't see how those claustrophobic seats made sense but you had a different view. Frankly, the sales people I dealt with seemed to be mostly winging it so I applied double ought NaCl. But since they promised it would work, you should go ahead and push for recourse - you want to and it's your prerogative. On the pragmatics front, I would not want them tearing my car apart to add ducting. Hard to see how that turns out well. My guess is that at the end of the day they may offer to refund the seat cost or tint the glass and add a power outlet. Good luck.
AmpedRealtor:
Those seats are ok and functional and usable except for those (relatively few) lucky customers that enjoy really hot summers.
For those rear airconditioning is not adequate. Is this something tesla advertised othervise? Did they showed cars with aircooled hatch and deliver non-aircooled-hatch-cars?
They delivered exactly what they advertised.
If many spent half as much effort on fixing this problem instead of harasing tesla on it, they would already fixed it for themselves. Solution might not be "elegant" but it is possible and is not expensive at all. Nor complicated.
Yet it gets mighty expensive retrofiting all (!) cars with special airducts and whatnot. Isn't servicing expensive enough already?
Where did I said that? I've checked again, I said something much different.
Those seats are ok and functional and usable except for those (relatively few) lucky customers that enjoy really hot summers.
For those rear airconditioning is not adequate. Is this something tesla advertised othervise? Did they showed cars with aircooled hatch and deliver non-aircooled-hatch-cars?
They delivered exactly what they advertised.
If many spent half as much effort on fixing this problem instead of harasing tesla on it, they would already fixed it for themselves. Solution might not be "elegant" but it is possible and is not expensive at all. Nor complicated.
Yet it gets mighty expensive retrofiting all (!) cars with special airducts and whatnot. Isn't servicing expensive enough already?
bsd
Member
I'm wondering what the situation will be like in our somewhat chilly Eastern-Canadian winters. I suppose my kid'll be in a snowsuit for that age range.
I think it's more than "relatively few".
Obviously, that's just the United States, but that's where most Tesla owners are right now.
I agree it's a serious design flaw. That said, I'm not sure whether Tesla will be able to retrofit a solution that really works. If not, they should offer to allow customers to return the seats and have their $1500 refunded. If it really isn't an issue for most people, then they won't need to deal with too many returns.
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