Well, if the New York Times isn't covering Nicki Minaj's cousins best friends swollen testicles, and his fiancee's getting cold feet about the marriage, then they aren't real journalists, are they???
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Really? Is no one talking about the Chevy Bolt?
- Thread starter SDBob
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Well, if the New York Times isn't covering Nicki Minaj's cousins best friends swollen testicles, and his fiancee's getting cold feet about the marriage, then they aren't real journalists, are they???
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thesmokingman
Active Member
Fearing battery fires after recalls, people are selling their Chevy Bolt EVs back to GM
After Bart Schoenfeld's Chevrolet Bolt EV was recalled for the second time, he'd had enough.
It's kind of crazy how much of a break owners are giving GM. This all should have been avoided had GM learned lessons from Tesla on how to build a battery. Thus it's downright negligent on GM, the result of their way of doing things.
usna92
On order LR3 - Midnight Silver - Black -18"
We are not giving "GM a break". The Bolt Forum I am on is on fire right now about 24/7. If GM tried to make their own batteries and tanked it, then that would be one thing. They went to LG, who is supposed to know how to make batteries. LG screwed Hyundai and KIa as well as GM.
thesmokingman
Active Member
Ahh the contractor's fault excuse, dislike that one as it's always used to escape fault.
usna92
On order LR3 - Midnight Silver - Black -18"
No. Trust me, I blame GM for not correcting it quickly and they are ultimately responsible for this whole disaster. What I was saying is that before we knew of the defects and the issues with the batteries, going with one of the largest manufacturers to make a specific part is not a poor decision. What I am saying is that continue to fart around with this, with no information, timeline, workaround, or resolution is 100% GM's fault. They will need to get their pound of flesh from the closest point of LGs heart, I just don't want to wait on a Bolt fix while they do it. With this latest round of news, there are no outs. Can't sell it, so the only options left are repurchase (if you can get GM to follow through) or repair.
thesmokingman
Active Member
The battery is the most important part in the car. It is the single costliest item in the car. They outsourced the most crucial part of the car. This is something Tesla learned from the very beginning (controlling thermal runaway) and vertically integrating the battery production and more importantly design. And this is what I meant by GM and the other legacy makers failing to learn from the playbook that Tesla laid out. You should read about what they went thru back then combating defective cells and thermal runaway, ultimately taking on design and production because they could not leave it to anyone else.
Well, before Bolt shipped, GM had experience w/LG Chem for the Volt (began shipping Dec 2010) and also at least 1 year of Spark EV and it seemed like GM was happy with them.Fearing battery fires after recalls, people are selling their Chevy Bolt EVs back to GM
After Bart Schoenfeld's Chevrolet Bolt EV was recalled for the second time, he'd had enough.www.cnn.com
It's kind of crazy how much of a break owners are giving GM. This all should have been avoided had GM learned lessons from Tesla on how to build a battery. Thus it's downright negligent on GM, the result of their way of doing things.
Bolt EV Powertrain: How Did GM And LG Collaborate On Design, Production?
In last fall's runup to the launch of the production 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV 200-mile electric car, GM discussed working together with Korean corporate giant LG on the Bolt's development. Mark Reuss, GM’s head of global product development said in October that the company's partnership with LG...
Chevrolet Bolt EV to be Developed through Strategic Partnership Between GM and LG
General Motors set aside traditional vehicle development in selecting LG Electronics as its partner ...
There was even Nissan CEO: "Best Battery Maker Is LG Chem" - Wait, What? while Nissan was (and still is using AESC). AESC at the time was a JV between Nissan and NEC.
LG Chem won contracts w/many other BEV automakers.
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Leafs don't have a problem with this. Tesla at least in the past chosen to use pretty unstable chemistries. Official Tesla Model S thread - Page 227 - My Nissan Leaf Forum or the longer post on gm-volt.com is often quoted by others.
Tesla has chosen to sacrifice serviceability of their packs. I've seen some of the teardowns of Tesla packs. They're impossible to repair at a service center.
Bolt's packs can be disassembled and have modules/sections replaced at a dealer. Ditto for Leaf module replacement (Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery? - Page 20 - My Nissan Leaf Forum can give you an idea of people swapping all the modules of a Leaf pack).
Agreed (I'm on chevybolt.org + a bunch of Bolt FB groups) although I'm not sure if them screwing Kia. Hyundai? Yes.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
By way of choosing volatile chemistries (which GM ended up choosing anyways in going with NMC, it's simply a necessity for higher energy density), Tesla also designed their packs to mitigate the effects (the S/X didn't have the heat dissipating goo, but they had module firewalls):
How Tesla's battery design avoided battery fire from single defective cell
That didn't seem to be present in the GM (or Hyundai) packs and to be fair, may not practical in the first place just due to the size of individual cells: there's only 288 cells (294 for Hyundai) vs thousands in a Tesla pack. Their approach is mainly to ensure no such defects happen in the first place, but LG Chem dropped the ball.
Well, right in that thread you see people talking about cell balancing and how it's not really a practical way to bring up capacity on an old pack, and eventually you'll still have to replace all the modules (in which case only the shell is reused). Tesla's idea was they'll get the pack costs down enough that module serviceability wouldn't be a big concern. But obviously they are not there yet (haven't quite reached below even the $12k prepaid replacement for Roadster packs back in 2009, even accounting for inflation which would make it $15k in today's dollars). There's also concerns about training for local SCs to do module replacements (easier to take pack back and refurb in a dedicated facility) and I guess we'll see this tested for GM in the recall.
Also, in pursuit of energy density, some sacrifices in modularity typically happens. For example, the 62kWh pack is much less modular (16 modules of different size) than the 40 kWh one (24 identical modules) which itself was less modular than the 24kWh one (48 modules):
Here Is The Nissan LEAF e+ 62 kWh Battery: Video
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GM says production starts on replacement batteries for Bolts
General Motors said Monday that production has resumed for battery modules used in recalled Chevrolet Bolt electric vehicles, and customers could start getting replacement parts by mid-October. GM said supplier LG has restarted production at plants in Holland and Hazel Park, Michigan, and is...
RobDickinson
Active Member
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usna92
On order LR3 - Midnight Silver - Black -18"
usna92
On order LR3 - Midnight Silver - Black -18"
It looks like GM and LG identified the set of circumstances fairly quickly and then missed completely determine the extent of the affected population. Hoping this will actually be a fix, mostly because our 2021 only has 1000k miles on it and my wife likes driving her Bolt, just without the risk of burning down the house when she's done.
LOL.
Even without the battery fire thing, the Bolt felt like driving a plastic Fisher Price toy.
usna92
On order LR3 - Midnight Silver - Black -18"
It is not a sports car that is for sure, but the acceleration and power was leaps and bounds over our Leaf that we had before. It also has a short front end that my wife can see over (she's 4'11'') which is really a quality of life thing when she is driving. She also likes that it is smaller than the Tesla. There is a market for an electric car of this size and at the reduced MSRP of later models, the Bolt was priced right. It looks like GM has a new battery process they are happy with, so I hope that it gets resolved soonish.The most frustrating thing about this whole thing has been the lack of transparency and confusing messages from GM. The high point of the frustration was the parking restriction announcement, because it fuels panic about the whole thing far above the actual statistics of the issue. If they really felt that 50ft was necessary, they should have dropped off a car in front of everyone's house and parked the Bolts until this is resolved. Anyway, we sold out 2020, since having two cars under interdiction was a car too far (and I wanted a Tesla anyway), and we are holding out for a repair (for now) on our 2021 since the financials are not as favorable on that car barring a forced buyback.
Disagree about "FIsher Price toy". The car's fine but the interior is sure crappy for its price. Even some other cheaper GM cars sold during the era the Bolt was introduced had better interiors.
The drivetrain is a bit noisy to me for an EV. Leafs seems quieter. Otherwise, the car drives fine and I like its size for ease of parking and maneuverability. Like usna92, it has way better acceleration than my former gen 1 Leaf.
There have been a few more updates on this in the past day or two. See Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV - Page 263 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.
FWIW, I did initiate the buyback process on my '19 Bolt a few weeks ago to see what GM offers me, if anything. Due to me having gotten the entire $7500 Federal tax credit and apparently, the calculations (at least for CA) not taking into account tax credit or not, it's possible I could get almost all my $ back.
I'm not holding my breath for it being a speedy process though. Mine is complicated by some minor hit and run damage by an unknown person. Someone hit my car and damaged the rear bumper cover. It'll need to be replaced but I want to see how much GM deducts for that vs. me paying for the repair.
Unfortunately, this is a terrible time to buy a used or new car so finding a reasonably priced BEV replacement is challenging. Supplies are thin and prices are high. If my Bolt goes back, there will be no car in my household, which will eventually become a problem for me.
The drivetrain is a bit noisy to me for an EV. Leafs seems quieter. Otherwise, the car drives fine and I like its size for ease of parking and maneuverability. Like usna92, it has way better acceleration than my former gen 1 Leaf.
There have been a few more updates on this in the past day or two. See Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV - Page 263 - My Nissan Leaf Forum.
FWIW, I did initiate the buyback process on my '19 Bolt a few weeks ago to see what GM offers me, if anything. Due to me having gotten the entire $7500 Federal tax credit and apparently, the calculations (at least for CA) not taking into account tax credit or not, it's possible I could get almost all my $ back.
I'm not holding my breath for it being a speedy process though. Mine is complicated by some minor hit and run damage by an unknown person. Someone hit my car and damaged the rear bumper cover. It'll need to be replaced but I want to see how much GM deducts for that vs. me paying for the repair.
Unfortunately, this is a terrible time to buy a used or new car so finding a reasonably priced BEV replacement is challenging. Supplies are thin and prices are high. If my Bolt goes back, there will be no car in my household, which will eventually become a problem for me.
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Actually, that's what I was referring to -- the clunky, chunky, plastic-y interior.
This isn't exactly a fair statement since the Roadster was made in such low quantity, there are minimal economies of scale involved. Just the labor to make a few hundred Roadster packs per year probably comes close to $12K. They would have to be hand-built at that quantity.
GM essentially did this with our Gen1 EV1 back in '99 when they recalled the whole fleet and made the lessees turn then in. It was almost a year before we got a GEN2 EV1 (NiMH batteries producing 2X the range). Re-done Gen1's weren't returned for almost 2 years. This didn't work out too well for GM.
Basically GM has blown it with the Bolt. While I love the car, I agree with other posters that, were GM smart or serious, they would have internalized the manufacture of batteries so they could control their own destiny. As IBM learned, outsourcing the key components of your product, seldom turns out well - at least for you.
They're just lucky that the press hates Tesla so much that they've been kind to GM.
Not really. For awhile, I'd see a fair amount of TV press coverage about all Bolts being recalled for fire risk, esp. on financial news (e.g. CNBC).
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