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Recalibrating the battery

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so many conflicting statements about how to care for it.....

I would say the following are pretty certain:

Cell properties that dictate battery properties:
Lithium cells like room temperature.
Higher temperature can allow the cells to be pushed harder, but temperature needs to be controlled.
At very low temperatures and at high SOC, (around 4.2v for many lithium technologies) there is a tendency for lithium metal to form inside the cells, effectively shorting out the cell from the inside of the cell.
Even when used under optimal conditions, lithium cells have a predictable degradation based on energy throughput.

Properties of battery (being made up of cells):

In reading any posts about batteries, talk of 'cell' could mean one single cell - like one aaa or aa cell, but is more likely to refer to what might be better called a 'super cell' (brick) that is made up of many cells wired in parallel that still behave like a single cell.
When you wire multiple cells (or super cells) in series (to increase the voltage) you unavoidably have the issue of not all cells / super cells having identical characteristics - however closely you try to match them.
Inevitable slight mis-matching between supercells (or inevitable occasional cell going bad) means that supercells will charge and discharge by slightly different amounts / speeds which becomes self-amplifying. ie: imbalance leads to greater imbalance. It is therefore essential to have a charging mechanism that keeps fixing any imbalance either instantaneously during charging (which I don't see how is possible but I am still looking for evidence) or more normally as you near completion of charge to a preset (max) level, you allow cells to absorb energy at a fixed voltage and reducing current self-dictated by each supercell. Eventually, given time, all the supercells should end up at very nearly the same voltage (SOC) - ie: balanced.

High currents through the series-connected cells either charging or discharging either add or remove energy from the supercells at slightly different rates, dictated by the intrinsic and inevitable slight mismatching. At extreme levels of charge or discharge, it is possible that some supercells are charged or exhausted to their limit while others still have a little capacity remaining. To get at that remaining capacity increases the potential of damage to the supercells already at their limits. Best policy is to avoid running the battery near to these extremes.

These are not Tesla specific, so they apply to all Ev's. Tesla already do a lot to try and both protect and optimise their batteries compared with other manufacturers, but there are always trade-offs. In the case of Tesla, this incudes not allowing regen braking when it could damage the battery (cold / high SOC - actually Tesla seem to focus mainly on low temps). They also 'waste' or at least use energy (but hopefully in a useful way) to heat the battery when that could be beneficial, and also to cool for the same reason.

So some of the conflicting info we read is I believe because of the conflicting demands placed on the batteries. But by adjusting use where convenient to take the above into account, you should extend the useful life of the battery.

Any one who disagrees with the above might be kind enough to post their reason and supporting evidence!
 
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"Where is this information coming from?" You will just have to take my word for it (or not). I am not going to any trouble to prove it if this is how people are. (And learn how to spell 'balanced')



"self-appointed experts"? See, this is what I get for trying to help ignorant people.

Gourd head and follow your unbased theories and continue to get your terrible results. Rest assured, I won't care. Too bad I can't go back and undo my attempt to help you. All I can do is refrain in the future.

Ignore mode enabled.

If you haven't ignored me yet, I am ready to hear any argument that you would put forwards and the only reason I hang out here is to share and learn.

I invest hours trying to suck every ounce of wisdom from all posts and some seem more valuable than others.

When I asked where the info is from, I was not doubting its validity, but just interested if it was from Tesla, your own experience, other owners you know.....

And my spelling is a mix of erroneous auto correct, English spelling vs US and mild dislexia!

My posts are rarely if ever targeted at an individual but anyone who is inclined to respond.
 
In the past year Tesla has lowered the voltage limit taking 10-15miles of real range from many of the 85 cars.

Consider yourself lucky if you lost 10-15 miles of range. My 2013 P85 immediately lost 31 miles of range after 2029.16.1 was forcibly installed. The battery cells now only charge up to just below 4.1 volts, giving a full SOC (98%, as it no longer will change to 100%) range of 226 miles, down from 257 miles.
 
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There isn't a recommended interval. What I know about this is due to hacking efforts, and it begins balancing at 93%. I charge mine to 100% about every six months or so, for balancing.

One of these third-party apps will actually graph the state of each module, clearly giving the condition of balancing. Don't remember which one.

The rationale of draining the pack all the way down and charging all the way up is to calibrate its capacity accurately. When it finds the bottom and the top your charge state reading is more accurate. Has nothing to do with lost capacity. An unbalanced pack does though.

Balancing begins at 93% with respect to the “old” 100% SOC where the cell voltage was approximately 4.2 volts; in other words, at the “old” 93% SOC, the cell voltage was above 4.1 volts. But the “new” 100% SOC is a hair less than 4.1 volts, which (at least on my car) corresponds to the “old” 88%, 89% SOC. Given this fact, will the battery pack still perform a rebalance with the lowered cell voltage?
 
Balancing begins at 93% with respect to the “old” 100% SOC where the cell voltage was approximately 4.2 volts; in other words, at the “old” 93% SOC, the cell voltage was above 4.1 volts. But the “new” 100% SOC is a hair less than 4.1 volts, which (at least on my car) corresponds to the “old” 88%, 89% SOC. Given this fact, will the battery pack still perform a rebalance with the lowered cell voltage?
Again the BMS manages all aspects of the battery and will balance all by itself with no additional input other than charging/discharging the battery.
 
If I printed out this thread and handed it to an ICE owner. That person would surely go out and buy another ICE. Many people don't want to have to think about a car or it's fuel. So why make them.

BMS and owners manual. I believe nothing I hear from Tesla. Only what is handed to me on paper, and never on Twitter. Leads to much more relaxed state of Tesla ownership.
 
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The Battery or BMS doesn't need to be recalibrated, this is strictly for those stressing over a lower number after repeated shallow discharge.

The car will measure the limits and find it's place whenever it is a trip causes you to get to the top and bottom of capacity.

Balancing the BMS handles.
 
I'm easy with either 'balancing takes place over a certain SOC' or 'BMS keeps battery balanced regardless of SOC'. It's not personal, but evidently @rooter is firmly in the over 93% SOC ad @swegman sees some basis for that while @Ande and many others maintain that cells remain balanced at all SOC which makes sense if you set a SOC and allow the car to charge to that limit.

I would really like a decisive statement that covers different models / ages and the basis for the statement. It shouldn't be down to us to argue it out here.
 
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....bottom line

Quit worrying about so called cell balancing and let the BMS do its job. Enjoy your Tesla and if there is an issue bring it into tesla to be addressed. Way to much speculation and guessing as to what's best and how to do it. Tesla engineers designed the BMS for a reason.....
 
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....bottom line

Quit worrying about so called cell balancing and let the BMS do its job. Enjoy your Tesla and if there is an issue bring it into tesla to be addressed. Way to much speculation and guessing as to what's best and how to do it. Tesla engineers designed the BMS for a reason.....

I’m not worrying about it because there is nothing I can do about it. I was merely asking because I would previously observe a cell balancing operation when charging the car to the “old” 100% SOC, but now (since I can no longer charge to the “new” 100% SOC (which corresponds to my “old” 88% or 89% SOC)) I don’t observe a cell balancing operation using ScanMyTesla.

BTW, I assume the statement that if there is an issue bring it into tesla to be addressed was a joke on your part. I’m certain you are aware that nearly every 85kWh battery owner without fail has been told that there is nothing wrong with their battery pack. In my case I was told (4 separate times) my battery is better than the fleet average for the same age and usage, yet they have no explanation for why the cell voltage is capped to just under 4.1 volts with a resultant loss of 31 miles of indicated range from immediately before the installation of 2019.16.1 to immediately after the installation of 2019.16.1.
 
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I’m not worrying about it because there is nothing I can do about it. I was merely asking because I would previously observe a cell balancing operation when charging the car to the “old” 100% SOC, but now (since I can no longer charge to the “new” 100% SOC (which corresponds to my “old” 88% or 89% SOC)) I don’t observe a cell balancing operation using ScanMyTesla.
The BMS is still doing its job at whatever soc
 
I think you meant never LEAVE a 100% charged battery for a long time. Service center told me no more than 60 minutes when I asked.

I think the poster may have meant to turn down the amperage you charge at so it trickle charges it’s way to 100%. There was some speculation back in the day that slooooly charging would balance the battery vs just letting it do its thing. Maybe yes back in the day but now it’s not neccesssary at least according to the SC

Recommendation: Whoever you are talking to at your Service Center about charging, don't listen to them. There's a 103% chance that they really have no idea what they are talking about.

60 minutes is simple BS.
The timing is more like 60 months. okay, maybe days. But even 60 days is too short.
Staying at full charge is a problems that most all modern batteries have. Laptops are notorious that if they stay plugged in for years, the batteries may start swelling. The same can happen on cellphones.
Cellphone and PC manufacturers have started implementing batteries profiles that limit the max charge if the device tends to stay plugged in all the time.

The exact same thing that Tesla does with limiting max charge.

And if you leave it at 100% for a few hours, days, or months, damage is not going to occur. If you have the car set to 100%, after a few charges, the car will suggest that you lower the max rate.
 
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"Where is this information coming from?" You will just have to take my word for it (or not). I am not going to any trouble to prove it if this is how people are. (And learn how to spell 'balanced')



"self-appointed experts"? See, this is what I get for trying to help ignorant people.

Gourd head and follow your unbased theories and continue to get your terrible results. Rest assured, I won't care. Too bad I can't go back and undo my attempt to help you. All I can do is refrain in the future.

Ignore mode enabled.

So, as a knowledgeable person, what is the estimated decrease in battery life (or whatever harm it may cause) that would come from leaving a car charged for 100% for a month?
And what it the decrease in battery life if I travel 20 miles a day and charge to 90% vs 50%?

Are we talking about 10 miles, 1,000 miles, 10,000 miles? And what is the expected battery lifetime of a Model 3?
 
When I told the SC I still got 242miles at 100% they said I was very lucks as some were barely seeing 200miles.
That's what happens when you don't charge to above 90%. The BMS doesn't get the ability to fully react and the car's calibration slips from reality.
Not that it's indicating a bad battery, it's just what happens and people freak out thinking that it is a bad battery.

What it does mean is that your BMS isn't able to exercise the cells and bring them to absolute max charge. So when you take it to 100%, you may not really get 100% unless you leave it there for a few days.
 
Which sounds like another way of saying the cells only balance at a high SOC (90% or 93% or whatever). Is that what you are saying?

Roughly.
I'm a fan of going to 100%, because IMHO, that's the only time that all cells can be brought up to max voltage. Evidently the algorithms start to kick in at somewhere near that range (Elon indicated that at 90% life would be good, but real world indicates at some level above that things actually kick in)
Also, some evidence shows that you may need to be at a high state of charge for up to 72 hours to get ALL of the cells at max capacity. The last little charging can be at extremely low current, taking near forever to top off.

And then there's different states of Max charge. Elon's 90% may come from a "Good enough" viewpoint.

And as has been shown in some recent software releases, these "max charge" algorithms are just very educated guesses that can be tuned.

In other words, there's a lot of pain and anguish being spread about a parameter that really doesn't have the accuracy that people are worried with.

There really is no such thing as "max charge" that's because at different consumption currents, the batteries have different capacities. A battery used a 0.1C can provide a lot more electrons than one being used at 0.9C. You can also say the same thing about temperatures.

There's a LOT of black art in batteries. We know enough to get close, but only close. Reality keeps spoiling science.
 
I think the BMS estimate benefits from an occasional long trip where it can go limit to limit and actually measure what is coming and going in back to back continuous sessions.
I don't think it benefits the battery itself.

Another point that I think is getting lost is if range is being reported low due to shallow discharge in the flat part of the voltage curve, those miles are there.
Once you begin to drain it down and you get lowish and voltage isn't falling as fast as the BMS expects it will see that and I believe you will see miles leave the estimate at a slower rate than your energy use.
Maybe put another way 0% and 100% are determined by programmed voltage points, everything in between is a calculation with some influence of measured voltage.
 
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I think the BMS estimate benefits from an occasional long trip where it can go limit to limit and actually measure what is coming and going in back to back continuous sessions.
I don't think it benefits the battery itself.

Another point that I think is getting lost is if range is being reported low due to shallow discharge in the flat part of the voltage curve, those miles are there.
Once you begin to drain it down and you get lowish and voltage isn't falling as fast as the BMS expects it will see that and I believe you will see miles leave the estimate at a slower rate than your energy use.
Maybe put another way 0% and 100% are determined by programmed voltage points, everything in between is a calculation with some influence of measured voltage.

BMS that I am aware of don't try to measure capacity, it measures current, voltage and temperature and tries to keep a cell from overheating as well as overcharging.

All of the points are just measured points. Letting the battery go to 100% is what allows the car to reset what 100% actually is.
And yes, it is not a linear curve and can differ between individual cells. Does inaccuracies of 3,000 cells spell disaster or does it allow a better ability to use average curves?
And of course, every battery pack that comes off the line is different and each battery pack will have different characteristics based on SoC, temperature, and current.

Having a decent knowledge of batteries always surprises me when the accuracy is better than charged/not charged. So many factors influence utilization.