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received EV -> EV2 transition letter [Discussion: CA Rate plans and PV or PV+Storage]

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Since I look at my PGE useage daily, I get no surprises. Its just if I knew this, I would crank up my AC before 4pm to get as cold as I could and then turn if off maybe. We shall see. Since I am hoping to have a nice large generation credit by the middle of the month, I might be able to really crank the AC, depending on when they True me up with moving me to EV2-a


Man, now you sound like a PG&E advertisement. Next you're going to tell me you're going to not cook meals around dinner time because coldcuts can be just as tasty as a roast. After all it's always "free" to shift how you use energy.

But dude you got 5 Powerwalls. Let those boogers do the shifting for you.
 
Man, now you sound like a PG&E advertisement. Next you're going to tell me you're going to not cook meals around dinner time because coldcuts can be just as tasty as a roast. After all it's always "free" to shift how you use energy.

But dude you got 5 Powerwalls. Let those boogers do the shifting for you.
I never said that! I learned quickly to let the wife run the electric dryer WHENEVER she wants. Now, she is doing it in the morning, rather than the evening, but her choice.

In the summer, I have zero concerns. The issue for me, and so few others since they have gas heating, is the high use of electricity, but so little solar. Not sure what I will do. Got to be a way to get those batteries charged on a rainy day. :)

I just do not want to get on the PGE list! Just better to work with folks, than fight them!!!
 
it really depends on your usage but i ran mine with a crappy perl script that i wrote against consumption and generation data from 2 years ago, and my true ups would go from $200-$400 to $1200 or so under EV2-A without poweralls. E-TOU-C was actually better for me without the powerwalls, like $800-$900 per year.

I ran PG&E rate comparison tool and it shows EV2-A as the worst alternative with close to the increase you experienced. The tool actually shows good old E-1 as the best alternative. Not sure I believe that. I wonder how many people with solar actually use E-1. Perhaps it's distorted by the pandemic usage data. E-TOU-C was second best alternative so that seems to support your analysis.
 
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I ran PG&E rate comparison tool and it shows EV2-A as the worst alternative with close to the increase you experienced. The tool actually shows good old E-1 as the best alternative. Not sure I believe that. I wonder how many people with solar actually use E-1. Perhaps it's distorted by the pandemic usage data. E-TOU-C was second best alternative so that seems to support your analysis.


You can't use solar with E1 (well not legally). This is the tiered rate structure where each month they allocate a baseline kWh limit and a tier 2 usage kWh limit. While you are in these tiers your energy rate is constant in that marginal consumption band.

If you could use these tiered rates with solar net metering, it'd be sooooooo nice. No time of use; no weird arbitrage, no NBC's. You'd just use solar as a means to make sure your usage was low.

I think some of the old NEM 1.0 folks were on an E6 rate, but that is a TOU rate.
 
You can't use solar with E1 (well not legally). This is the tiered rate structure where each month they allocate a baseline kWh limit and a tier 2 usage kWh limit. While you are in these tiers your energy rate is constant in that marginal consumption band.

If you could use these tiered rates with solar net metering, it'd be sooooooo nice. No time of use; no weird arbitrage, no NBC's. You'd just use solar as a means to make sure your usage was low.

I think some of the old NEM 1.0 folks were on an E6 rate, but that is a TOU rate.

That's what I thought and why I was wondering who has solar with E-1. PG&E tool is using my actual data to do the comparison so it should have known I am on NEM and not show invalid alternative rate plans.
 
I think some of the old NEM 1.0 folks were on an E6 rate, but that is a TOU rate.
My first small solar system (2.5 kW) was designed to keep my E7 (even sweeter than E6) system from ever going into Tier 3. It worked wonderfully until PG&E yanked that plan away. That is their magic. If something ever gets too good they lawyer up with the PUC and build rate cases against what the fought for just a few years prior. o_O
 
My first small solar system (2.5 kW) was designed to keep my E7 (even sweeter than E6) system from ever going into Tier 3. It worked wonderfully until PG&E yanked that plan away. That is their magic. If something ever gets too good they lawyer up with the PUC and build rate cases against what the fought for just a few years prior. o_O

Yeah I don’t even consider solar an asset of more than 15 years in California. The industry moves so fast, and in 15 years you’ll be on your third PG&E rate plan. Basically the asset you put on your roof may still be producing energy but PG&E will be allowed to squeeze value out of your system to make using it punitive rather quickly.

I really hope that bill doesn’t pass that wipes out all NEM grandfathering and all TOU grandfathering. That’ll basically crush people who signed solar leases and PPA agreements that assumed their NEM and fee structures were fairly static.
 
Yeah I don’t even consider solar an asset of more than 15 years in California. The industry moves so fast, and in 15 years you’ll be on your third PG&E rate plan. Basically the asset you put on your roof may still be producing energy but PG&E will be allowed to squeeze value out of your system to make using it punitive rather quickly.

I really hope that bill doesn’t pass that wipes out all NEM grandfathering and all TOU grandfathering. That’ll basically crush people who signed solar leases and PPA agreements that assumed their NEM and fee structures were fairly static.
This is what has happened to me. The previous owners of the house (we bought it 8 years ago) had a 2.8 kW PPA, which we re-negotiated quite well when we bought the house. Yet, we've noticed slowly but surely that thing become completely useless to us.
 
I am trying to model the economics of adding a battery or two and moving to EV-2A. Thoughts?

well you can see above how EV-2A works better than E-TOU-C for me with 5kw solar and 2 powerwalls. but the powerwalls will never pay for themselves in any reasonable period of time. i wanted them to protect me from PSPS events (which really affected me psychologically more than i ever thought they would, lol)
 
For some reason I find myself on E1-X with the small 2.8 kW system that I have right now. Looking to expand (See other thread)

That's interesting. I will have to check with PG&E to see if that's available to me. Now that I have thought more about it I do see how simple tiered rates can be the least bad alternative to EV-A financially for solar owners. It appears all NEM will be killed soon in CA so that will probably make simple tiered rates even better. I understand subsidies shouldn't go on forever but it's sad that residential solar growth in CA will likely crash as it did in Hawaii once NEM goes away.
 
That's interesting. I will have to check with PG&E to see if that's available to me. Now that I have thought more about it I do see how simple tiered rates can be the least bad alternative to EV-A financially for solar owners. It appears all NEM will be killed soon in CA so that will probably make simple tiered rates even better. I understand subsidies shouldn't go on forever but it's sad that residential solar growth in CA will likely crash as it did in Hawaii once NEM goes away.
Have any link to what happened in hawaii?
 
Have any link to what happened in hawaii?


They ended NEM a few years ago.

With net metering no longer an option for Hawaii's solar customers, they have two programs to choose from: “Smart Export,” which requires an energy storage system that customers charge during the day and use for power at night, and “Customer Grid Supply Plus,” where they can export power to the grid throughout the day but receive less-enticing compensation.

So the utility said that the "spirit" of NEM persisted because there was some way a residential solar customer could export and re-import. But gone is the concept of NEM that you are familiar with (based on kWh of export creating bank that can be tapped for re-import). Instead Hawaii basdically allows new solar customers to enter into a program where they get access to "lower cost" peak rates as long as they export a certain amount during off peak. But it's impossible to net-out to zero without some clever tricks.

It's basically wiped out any meaningful ROI for solar-only installs. I'm still not clear on how the market for ESS in Hawaii has fared. But one interesting thing is that it seems like the Utilities are taking a lead in being the ones to put ESS in homes; which allows the utility to be the one to profit off of the ESS install and probably dictate how it's used instead of just taking that $900 interconnection fee from my NEM2-MT.
 
You can't use solar with E1 (well not legally). This is the tiered rate structure where each month they allocate a baseline kWh limit and a tier 2 usage kWh limit. While you are in these tiers your energy rate is constant in that marginal consumption band.

If you could use these tiered rates with solar net metering, it'd be sooooooo nice. No time of use; no weird arbitrage, no NBC's. You'd just use solar as a means to make sure your usage was low.

I think some of the old NEM 1.0 folks were on an E6 rate, but that is a TOU rate.

This exact thing is why I likely wont add or change anything with regards to how much solar I have now, etc.

I am on SCE's equivalent of what you just mentioned ( a tiered rate plan). Doesnt matter WHEN i use power, just how much I use, and 1:1 net metering with no peak or off peak, etc.

Thats why I always use self powered. Under my plan I am incentivized for using as little from the grid as possible, on a monthly basis, no matter when I use it. Since Jan 6 of 2020 (when I got powerwalls) I have had exactly 1 month where I went into "tier 2" usage.

Those tiers are structured in such a way that, if you dont have solar, if you dont even live in your home and just have a fridge running, you will basically use up your allotment of tier 1 energy. Those plans expect everyone to be either in tier 2, or tier 3 (there used to be 4 tiers but they "streamlined" it). Tier 1 is now 22 cents (used to be 14 cents), but that also means I get solar credit at that exact same 22 cents during the year, for banking toward those winter months.

It really doesnt make sense for me to do anything to change. Changing to any TOU rate would increase my bill over a thousand dollars, no matter what I did, even if I didnt use a single drop of "peak energy".

I am close to being right on the nose as far as being a yearly consumer vs producer. Last year my true up was very small, I think it was like $40-$50. I get billed the $10 a month on average just like people on TOU plans, but thats only if I am a net producer for the month. If I an a net consumer for the month, my monthly bill is like <$2 and the balance goes against the yearly total.

Its a lot simpler, and better for the homeowner, which is why they killed it for new people, and are trying to kill it for existing people too.
 
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This exact thing is why I likely wont add or change anything with regards to how much solar I have now, etc.

I am on SCE's equivalent of what you just mentioned ( a tiered rate plan). Doesnt matter WHEN i use power, just how much I use, and 1:1 net metering with no peak or off peak, etc.

Thats why I always use self powered. under my plan I am incentivized for using as little from the grid as possible, on a monthly basis, no matter when I use it. Since Jan 6 of 2020 (when I got powerwalls) I have had exactly 1 month where I went into "tier 2" usage.

Those tiers are structured in such a way that, if you dont have solar, if you dont even live in your home and just have a fridge running, you will basically use up your allotment of tier 1 energy. Those plans expect everyone to be either in tier 2, or tier 3 (there used to be 4 tiers but they "streamlined" it). Tier 1 is now 22 cents (used to be 14 cents), but that also means I get solar credit at that exact same 22 cents during the year, for banking toward those winter months.

It really doesnt make sense for me to do anything to change. Changing to any TOU rate would increase my bill over a thousand dollars, no matter what I did, even if I didnt use a single drop of "peak energy".

I am close to being right on the nose as far as being a yearly consumer vs producer. Last year my true up was very small, I think it was like $40-$50. I get billed the $10 a month on average just like people on TOU plans, but thats only if I am a net producer for the month. If I an a net consumer for the month, my monthly bill is like <$2 and the balance goes against the yearly total.

Its a lot simpler, and better for the homeowner, which is why they killed it for new people, and are trying to kill it for existing people too.

Yeah I feel like your rate structure is what @dabreutx has under PG&E where he has "E-1X". This is a tiered rate plan, but the NEM generation/usage is based on monthly performance in the tiered bands. There isn't TOU, or an annual true up. So he's able to take full advantage of PG&E as the "remote ESS" without any penalty because all he has to do is use solar to reduce his total monthly energy use regardless of when that energy is used.

One thing that I can't quite understand is why more homeowners who bought solar in like 2015 aren't showing monster increases to their PG&E bills as their rate structures get amended to the new TOU plans. Like maybe those people just don't know where to post, but I don't see how someone could have gotten solar under plans like yours; then somehow not see mega spikes in annual true up bills once they shift over to TOU plans.

Like my neighbor behind me saw a big spike, but he kind of just doesn't care? Maybe that's really what is happening? That solar customers were always kind of wealthy so a $1,000 surprise isn't really cringe worthy to the extent it ever becomes something the public is aware of?

I hope you wrote your local congressperson to oppose that AB1139... if that passes without major revision your old NEM/Tariff/Rate structure gets wiped out and replaced with whatever is in place at that time.
 
Yeah I feel like your rate structure is what @dabreutx has under PG&E where he has "E-1X". This is a tiered rate plan, but the NEM generation/usage is based on monthly performance in the tiered bands. There isn't TOU, or an annual true up. So he's able to take full advantage of PG&E as the "remote ESS" without any penalty because all he has to do is use solar to reduce his total monthly energy use regardless of when that energy is used.

One thing that I can't quite understand is why more homeowners who bought solar in like 2015 aren't showing monster increases to their PG&E bills as their rate structures get amended to the new TOU plans. Like maybe those people just don't know where to post, but I don't see how someone could have gotten solar under plans like yours; then somehow not see mega spikes in annual true up bills once they shift over to TOU plans.

Like my neighbor behind me saw a big spike, but he kind of just doesn't care? Maybe that's really what is happening? That solar customers were always kind of wealthy so a $1,000 surprise isn't really cringe worthy to the extent it ever becomes something the public is aware of?

I hope you wrote your local congressperson to oppose that AB1139... if that passes without major revision your old NEM/Tariff/Rate structure gets wiped out and replaced with whatever is in place at that time.

I did, but I dont think it is going to help ( I dont have much faith in stuff like that making a difference).

Those 2015 customers you mention (like me) are probably still on their tiered rates, so havent experienced the shift. PTO on my system was early 2016. I got an EV in dec of 2018, and was trying to figure out would switching to "the EV rate" be better for me. I looked at it for a couple of months (because the online modeling doesnt work for my account, I guess since its under NEM), then called SCE.

I got someone helpful in the energy department who went over it with me, and they said "if I were you, I would just keep your tiered rate since you can. If you switch off it, you wont be able to go back". I still thank my lucky stars I got someone who was both knowledgeable, and honest, when I called in about it.

For full disclosure, during a "regular" year (so not 2020), my commute to work is such that, I use about 22-25kW of energy daily driving my model 3 to work and back (80 mile round trip). That means my EV alone uses about the same amount of energy my house uses on a daily basis (home uses 23-30kW a day, depending on if laundry is done, etc).

So, my EV doubled my weekday usage, and it was STILL much (much) better for me to be on a tiered rate than a TOU rate, because I had previously sized my solar such that it was like 120% of my yearly usage, because i told them I was going to get an EV. Powerwalls never made sense to me under my Electricity plan, but go through a couple of PSPS events and then "what makes sense" changes (lmao).

Luckily, adding powerwalls did not change my plan, although a specific box on the application needed to be checked, and my tesla advisor did not check it (which would have moved me to another plan, and they wouldnt have let me go back). I had to stay on top of them to correct it. Lucky for me, the NEM agreement needed my electronic signature and I wouldnt sign it till I was sure it was correct.


Even though I would like to get more solar as I would like to swap my wifes ICE car for an EV, getting more solar would force me off this plan, so I likely wont do it unless they tear up my agreement like they are trying to do.
 
Yeah I feel like your rate structure is what @dabreutx has under PG&E where he has "E-1X". This is a tiered rate plan, but the NEM generation/usage is based on monthly performance in the tiered bands. There isn't TOU, or an annual true up. So he's able to take full advantage of PG&E as the "remote ESS" without any penalty because all he has to do is use solar to reduce his total monthly energy use regardless of when that energy is used.

One thing that I can't quite understand is why more homeowners who bought solar in like 2015 aren't showing monster increases to their PG&E bills as their rate structures get amended to the new TOU plans. Like maybe those people just don't know where to post, but I don't see how someone could have gotten solar under plans like yours; then somehow not see mega spikes in annual true up bills once they shift over to TOU plans.

Like my neighbor behind me saw a big spike, but he kind of just doesn't care? Maybe that's really what is happening? That solar customers were always kind of wealthy so a $1,000 surprise isn't really cringe worthy to the extent it ever becomes something the public is aware of?

I hope you wrote your local congressperson to oppose that AB1139... if that passes without major revision your old NEM/Tariff/Rate structure gets wiped out and replaced with whatever is in place at that time.
I forget the date, but if you got solar in the past, and are on NEM1, you get 20 years, so no tou change I believe
 
This exact thing is why I likely wont add or change anything with regards to how much solar I have now, etc.

I am on SCE's equivalent of what you just mentioned ( a tiered rate plan). Doesnt matter WHEN i use power, just how much I use, and 1:1 net metering with no peak or off peak, etc.

Thats why I always use self powered. Under my plan I am incentivized for using as little from the grid as possible, on a monthly basis, no matter when I use it. Since Jan 6 of 2020 (when I got powerwalls) I have had exactly 1 month where I went into "tier 2" usage.

Those tiers are structured in such a way that, if you dont have solar, if you dont even live in your home and just have a fridge running, you will basically use up your allotment of tier 1 energy. Those plans expect everyone to be either in tier 2, or tier 3 (there used to be 4 tiers but they "streamlined" it). Tier 1 is now 22 cents (used to be 14 cents), but that also means I get solar credit at that exact same 22 cents during the year, for banking toward those winter months.

It really doesnt make sense for me to do anything to change. Changing to any TOU rate would increase my bill over a thousand dollars, no matter what I did, even if I didnt use a single drop of "peak energy".

I am close to being right on the nose as far as being a yearly consumer vs producer. Last year my true up was very small, I think it was like $40-$50. I get billed the $10 a month on average just like people on TOU plans, but thats only if I am a net producer for the month. If I an a net consumer for the month, my monthly bill is like <$2 and the balance goes against the yearly total.

Its a lot simpler, and better for the homeowner, which is why they killed it for new people, and are trying to kill it for existing people too.
You are fine unless they throw out everything, as some want to happen, and make a completely new setup for everyone. If this happens, who knows what will happen. Meaning, under some proposals, I never should have put on solar to start with, let alone, maybe I should remove it.

I am going forward to see if I can get some more panels. Not sure this is smart, but since I am not sure any will be approved, is fun trying.