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received EV -> EV2 transition letter [Discussion: CA Rate plans and PV or PV+Storage]

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,929
558
auburn, ca
For me it wasn't even economics, the public safety power shutdowns are the reason. I use 13kw a day, my solar produce 26kw so I should be off the grid for a long time with my 2 PWs. Winter with snow, that is a different discussion, I can hold for a day or two after that the generator needs to come out.
I have never seen an economic model work. And even with power shutdowns, a 500 buck generator is the only way to go, if you are looking at it from an ROI.
 

Oceanwolf

Oceanwolf
Sep 12, 2015
204
94
Morgan Hill, CA
I have never seen an economic model work. And even with power shutdowns, a 500 buck generator is the only way to go, if you are looking at it from an ROI.
True, if you are trying to get a ROI, go with a champion 3kW dual fuel inverter generator. Anyone wants mine? :) . It rans out of gas every 6 hours, can't use it at night.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,929
558
auburn, ca
True, if you are trying to get a ROI, go with a champion 3kW dual fuel inverter generator. Anyone wants mine? :) . It rans out of gas every 6 hours, can't use it at night.
Get dual fuel. Run it off propane. And I know plenty of folks who run their generator all night. But even so, keeping the refrig cold does not need a generator running full time. I only ran mine a few hours a day, and was fine.
 
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holeydonut

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,105
1,489
East Bay NorCal
Batteries for resiliency is more of a health issue than a cost issue. The people on Equity Resiliency are typically single-sourced to well-water only; have medical conditions that require electricity for treatment (eg: hemodialysis or CPAP); and generally need some energy security over time (like maybe they need air conditioning to avoid overheating).

That's why I'm surprised you got a whopping 5 batteries for a whole home backup. When I hear the SGIP people speak about batteries, they usually just see people move their well pump and some medical equipment onto a single critical loads panel.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,929
558
auburn, ca
Batteries for resiliency is more of a health issue than a cost issue. The people on Equity Resiliency are typically single-sourced to well-water only; have medical conditions that require electricity for treatment (eg: hemodialysis or CPAP); and generally need some energy security over time (like maybe they need air conditioning to avoid overheating).

That's why I'm surprised you got a whopping 5 batteries for a whole home backup. When I hear the SGIP people speak about batteries, they usually just see people move their well pump and some medical equipment onto a single critical loads panel.
Just was the process SGIP used.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,105
1,489
East Bay NorCal
Just was the process SGIP used.


Yeah but your method to get this SGIP seems inconsistent with what SGIP has been saying for months for Equity Resiliency. Did someone submit an ICF in August 2020 and get the RRF approval for your project before October 22, 2020?

After that time, it was incredibly difficult to get Equity Resilience funds in PG&E's area. Applicants were waitlisted, and would be hoping SGIP rejects people ahead of them in line to free up funds for their own ER incentive. PG&E, the CPUC, and SGIP claimed in the Q4 workshop that the funds were basically gone for new applications in the PG&E coverage area since all excess funds were shifted to the low-income-non-residential.

The boolean to determine if you even qualify for the "normal income" Equity Resiliency is confusing as hell:

(you either suffered a lot of PSPS OR are in a Tier2/3 fire zone)
AND
(you are on Medical Baseline OR 100% well pump water OR or someone in your household has a serious medical condition that would suffer greatly without power)

I can't imagine that you qualify for the Equity/Low-Income bucket since you're looking into buying 3 EVs. So, assuming you qualify through the above Equity Resiliency boolean. How you're getting the funds today means someone set aside funds for you a while back. Whoever did that for you deserves many cases of beer.


1620871718049.png
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,929
558
auburn, ca
Yeah but your method to get this SGIP seems inconsistent with what SGIP has been saying for months for Equity Resiliency. Did someone submit an ICF in August 2020 and get the RRF approval for your project before October 22, 2020?

After that time, it was incredibly difficult to get Equity Resilience funds in PG&E's area. Applicants were waitlisted, and would be hoping SGIP rejects people ahead of them in line to free up funds for their own ER incentive. PG&E, the CPUC, and SGIP claimed in the Q4 workshop that the funds were basically gone for new applications in the PG&E coverage area since all excess funds were shifted to the low-income-non-residential.

The boolean to determine if you even qualify for the "normal income" Equity Resiliency is confusing as hell:

(you either suffered a lot of PSPS OR are in a Tier2/3 fire zone)
AND
(you are on Medical Baseline OR 100% well pump water OR or someone in your household has a serious medical condition that would suffer greatly without power)

I can't imagine that you qualify for the Equity/Low-Income bucket since you're looking into buying 3 EVs. So, assuming you qualify through the above Equity Resiliency boolean. How you're getting the funds today means someone set aside funds for you a while back. Whoever did that for you deserves many cases of beer.


View attachment 661771
yep was approved before that. After the rules changed.

I never said I was going to buy any EV's, and probably never will. We are a mini van family, and ICE. I was only looking to wire for future proofing for the next buyer. But, have decided not worth money and effort. Technology changes to fast so better to let someone do when needed.
 

Electrph

Member
Aug 29, 2019
456
308
Central California
BTW, I know people here think I'm exaggerating about the cold cuts and line drying clothes; or turning your TV to dim-mode. But remember I was on the phone with PG&E's "energy experts" in 2019 when I was asking about my energy bill. I used to get all their mailers and "Energy House Call" newsletters with their advice. Their advisors literally told me to sit in the dark until 8pm and eat cold sandwiches because every little bit helps.


Below are some real PG&E documents for your review.







I love these PG&E “ideas“ ..its as if a SNL skit writer was hired by PG&E ...
”On hottest days instead of drying your clothes make a game of it ! ... the family can all drape wet laundry on each other in the back yard! ... Little Jimmy can dry his clothes and cool off at the same time!“
Are you F***in kidding me ?!?!
 

BGbreeder

Member
Jun 19, 2020
362
225
Bay Area
I agree that PG&E's suggestion are SNL worthy. It feels like that was created and sent out without review.

I think that part of the issue is that PG&E has you in baseline zone X, which includes most of the Bay Area west of you where heating and cooling is much much less of a load. It is a weird zone for baseline. Map here. It includes Ukiah and inland San Luis Obispo/ San Diego.

All the best,

BG
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,105
1,489
East Bay NorCal
I agree that PG&E's suggestion are SNL worthy. It feels like that was created and sent out without review.

I think that part of the issue is that PG&E has you in baseline zone X, which includes most of the Bay Area west of you where heating and cooling is much much less of a load. It is a weird zone for baseline. Map here. It includes Ukiah and inland San Luis Obispo/ San Diego.

All the best,

BG


Lol, I think the reason I dislike PG&E so much is I know those recommendations were actually reviewed and are part of PG&E's comprehensive plan to gaslight ratepayers. With these stupid recommendations, PG&E can turn to frustrated homeowners and say "you could have done all sorts of things, and your energy bill would be nice and low." It makes the rate payer think they're the problem when the real problem is PG&E.

Does anyone really think turning off your TV from 4 to 9 is going to make a dent on that monthly bill? No. But when a homeowner calls PG&E with a $500 shocker bill in July, PG&E will say "you should stop watching TV and then have your kids run around outside to dry your clothes. That'll get your energy costs down!!!"

So yeah, the energy saving tips are stupid. But it should be criminal that this stupid the advice is being handed out to hundreds of thousands of rate payers and they're being told to try those tips to get their bills down to affordable levels.

I posted this link a few months ago about some woman that had her energy bill go from like $100 a month to about $250 a month. She said she resorted to not cooking, going to the bathroom with a lantern, and some other seemingly stupid things. But the thinks she is doing the proper advice coming from PG&E. PG&E probably told her sooooo many stupid things when she asked about her rates. They gaslight you into thinking you're a terrible person for wasting so much energy, so you believe it's ok to live like it's the 1800s without electricity.

A few months ago, PG&E residential rate payers had fallen "past due" on their bills to the tune of $605 Million dollars. With the shift to TOU-for-everybody and a 15% rate hike, this problem only got worse. Also keep in mind that when people don't pay their bills, PG&E gets to claim the bad debt expense and increase rates for the normal paying population to make up for it. PG&E's annual residential revenue was $5,523 Million in 2020. So that's almost 11% of that revenue is falling past due over 31 days. Almost 8% had fallen past 61 days late. Since PG&E can't disconnect people for non payment, guess who's going to pay this bad debt expense to guarantee PG&E's profits...

And idiot lawmakers like that Gonzales woman are trying to make it cost prohibitable to go solar. Jerks.

Lastly, I'm in Zone X. You're right, they not only aren't really sampling a bunch of homes in my hot-ass inland climate, they're also including a bunch of apartment, condo, and smaller houses in their sample. The baseline is trash; it's nowhere near enough to operate a suburban home with AC. It's why my neighbors (without solar) say they just turn off their AC and don't cook much because they don't want to pay $500+ energy bills. The stupid part is if they lived in any state but California that same bill would be like $150.

1620928847873.png
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,929
558
auburn, ca
Lol, I think the reason I dislike PG&E so much is I know those recommendations were actually reviewed and are part of PG&E's comprehensive plan to gaslight ratepayers. With these stupid recommendations, PG&E can turn to frustrated homeowners and say "you could have done all sorts of things, and your energy bill would be nice and low." It makes the rate payer think they're the problem when the real problem is PG&E.

Does anyone really think turning off your TV from 4 to 9 is going to make a dent on that monthly bill? No. But when a homeowner calls PG&E with a $500 shocker bill in July, PG&E will say "you should stop watching TV and then have your kids run around outside to dry your clothes. That'll get your energy costs down!!!"

So yeah, the energy saving tips are stupid. But it should be criminal that this stupid the advice is being handed out to hundreds of thousands of rate payers and they're being told to try those tips to get their bills down to affordable levels.

I posted this link a few months ago about some woman that had her energy bill go from like $100 a month to about $250 a month. She said she resorted to not cooking, going to the bathroom with a lantern, and some other seemingly stupid things. But the thinks she is doing the proper advice coming from PG&E. PG&E probably told her sooooo many stupid things when she asked about her rates. They gaslight you into thinking you're a terrible person for wasting so much energy, so you believe it's ok to live like it's the 1800s without electricity.

A few months ago, PG&E residential rate payers had fallen "past due" on their bills to the tune of $605 Million dollars. With the shift to TOU-for-everybody and a 15% rate hike, this problem only got worse. Also keep in mind that when people don't pay their bills, PG&E gets to claim the bad debt expense and increase rates for the normal paying population to make up for it. PG&E's annual residential revenue was $5,523 Million in 2020. So that's almost 11% of that revenue is falling past due over 31 days. Almost 8% had fallen past 61 days late. Since PG&E can't disconnect people for non payment, guess who's going to pay this bad debt expense to guarantee PG&E's profits...

And idiot lawmakers like that Gonzales woman are trying to make it cost prohibitable to go solar. Jerks.

Lastly, I'm in Zone X. You're right, they not only aren't really sampling a bunch of homes in my hot-ass inland climate, they're also including a bunch of apartment, condo, and smaller houses in their sample. The baseline is trash; it's nowhere near enough to operate a suburban home with AC. It's why my neighbors (without solar) say they just turn off their AC and don't cook much because they don't want to pay $500+ energy bills. The stupid part is if they lived in any state but California that same bill would be like $150.

View attachment 661963
And who ends up paying more for folks who do not pay?
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,105
1,489
East Bay NorCal
And who ends up paying more for folks who do not pay?


Well, technically everybody who is paying will pay for those who do not pay :p

But yeah the middle-class schleps who aren't dis-advantaged but also cannot install big-azzzz solar systems and batteries take it on the nose the worst.

What PG&E is never going to do is find a way to actually efficiently operate without soooo muccchhhhh waste and misappropriation so people's bills come down. Too much money being thrown out by PG&E for people to stop that mega-monopoly (I mean IOU) gravy train.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
2,105
1,489
East Bay NorCal
BTW, about those people not paying their bills... PG&E had 672 thousand ratepayers that were delinquent over 61 days. And PG&E has 4,600 thousand residential ratepayers. So while it's only 8% of the total residential revenue that is 61+ delinquent, it is almost 15% of PG&E's total residential customer base. And the CPUC extended the "cannot disconnect for nonpayment" cutoff to June 30, 2021.

Even if PG&E cuts power to 15% of their customer population at the end of Q2, is not like PG&E is going to get the money back through collections.

If you're actually paying normal energy bills to PG&E, you can expect at least a 10%+ rate hike in 2022 (on top of the 15% you got hit with in 2021) when PG&E declares an emergency where they're writing off a bunch of bad debt. Edit: I guess the CPUC wants each utility to solve this problem with Federal funds first... and will reconvene if the Federal relief packages are not sufficient.
 
Last edited:

astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
483
111
oakland, ca
well, my switch supposedly happened on 10 June - i updated all my monitoring stuff and the tesla app to reflect the new times/prices. so far it looks like i'm netting out about +$3 per day here in the summer (vs no powerwall), which is comparable to the way it was on EV with the powerwall. it's nice to be able to charge the cars during the day. however, come winter i'm sure this tariff is going to kill me relative to EV since there's just not enough solar to shave the partial-peak and peak times.
 

cali8484

Member
Jul 8, 2018
272
150
California
well, my switch supposedly happened on 10 June - i updated all my monitoring stuff and the tesla app to reflect the new times/prices. so far it looks like i'm netting out about +$3 per day here in the summer (vs no powerwall), which is comparable to the way it was on EV with the powerwall. it's nice to be able to charge the cars during the day. however, come winter i'm sure this tariff is going to kill me relative to EV since there's just not enough solar to shave the partial-peak and peak times.

PG&E also wanted me to change from EV-A to EV2-A but their online tool showed that would be the most expensive alternative. So I called them and got them to put me on good old E1 which was the least expensive alternative recommended by their tool as it appears my solar system will keep me from importing too much energy at the top E1 tier rate. E1 will still increase my bill quite a bit but not nearly as much as EV2-A and in a way I am glad because I don't have to deal with charging schedules anymore.
 
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astrorob

stealth performance M3
Aug 27, 2014
483
111
oakland, ca
i never looked at E1 but i thought that with solar they want you on a TOU plan. did that change? i am on NEM1 if that is relevant.

at least for me with the powerwalls, my simulations indicated that EV2-A would be the best out of EV2-A, E-TOU-C and E-TOU-D.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,483
6,234
Los Altos, CA
i never looked at E1 but i thought that with solar they want you on a TOU plan. did that change? i am on NEM1 if that is relevant.

at least for me with the powerwalls, my simulations indicated that EV2-A would be the best out of EV2-A, E-TOU-C and E-TOU-D.
Among those choices, the PG&E Electric Rate Comparison tool shows that EV2-A is $500+/year cheaper than the others. I have multiple years of history with solar + Powerwalls and more than one of those on EV2-A. However, I don't have central A/C. There are typically only about 10 days per year that I wish I did.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,929
558
auburn, ca
Among those choices, the PG&E Electric Rate Comparison tool shows that EV2-A is $500+/year cheaper than the others. I have multiple years of history with solar + Powerwalls and more than one of those on EV2-A. However, I don't have central A/C. There are typically only about 10 days per year that I wish I did.
Seems if you do not have AC, which most of use run full time during peak, it could big time change you comparison numbers?
 

cali8484

Member
Jul 8, 2018
272
150
California
i never looked at E1 but i thought that with solar they want you on a TOU plan. did that change? i am on NEM1 if that is relevant.

at least for me with the powerwalls, my simulations indicated that EV2-A would be the best out of EV2-A, E-TOU-C and E-TOU-D.

I am on NEM1 too. According to PG&E that for solar customers moving to non-TOU is still possible depending on location. It seems that there is some kind of cap on number of solar customers on non-TOU plans in each area and it happens to be available to me.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,483
6,234
Los Altos, CA
Seems if you do not have AC, which most of use run full time during peak, it could big time change you comparison numbers?
Of course, that's why I mentioned it. The Powerwalls allow me to only draw Off-Peak energy from PG&E for 6 months a year. There are probably another 2 months a year that I draw some Part-Peak but nothing during Peak. The 4 Winter months, I don't have enough solar generation to even cover my Peak usage.

My True-Up that ended in April 2021 had 6,705 kWh of net usage and only $864.69 of billable energy charges. That is about $0.129/kWh. That's pretty cool considering that the lowest Off-Peak EV2-A price was $0.16611/kWh during that year. E-1 Baseline was $0.23581/kWh at the beginning of 2020 and is $0.25902 now.
 
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