received EV -> EV2 transition letter [Discussion: CA Rate plans and PV or PV+Storage]

[holeydonut]

oh, i care (and notice). not much that can be done about it though.

i haven't consistently downloaded the EV rate sheet to capture all of the changes. does PGE keep the historical tariff sheets on their website?

IMO this is why I think PV+ESS has an implied benefit that few people quantify. The PV+ESS effectively locks in rates, and is a form of a hedge against the PoCo. If you wanted to enter into a futures contract for 10 years of kWh rates right now, you won't find a broker. But, you can get a battery or two and are no longer tied to the PoCo's rate BS.

Regarding the historical rates; I don't think PG&E makes like a month by month dataset available... but I did jot these down for EVA


2016 Summer Peak $0.44 per kWh
2018 Summer Peak $0.47
2021 Summer Peak $0.56 (27% increase from 2016)

Of course, you should not charge your car during peak; but this rate hike is just killing you if you were cooking or running the AC like a normal person


Anyway, specific to the off-peak charging I have these rates jotted down.

2016 Summer Off-Peak $0.12 per kWh
2018 Summer Off-Peak $0.13
2021 Summer Off-Peak $0.16 (33% increase from 2016)

 

[h2ofun]

IMO this is why I think PV+ESS has an implied benefit that few people quantify. The PV+ESS effectively locks in rates, and is a form of a hedge against the PoCo. If you wanted to enter into a futures contract for 10 years of kWh rates right now, you won't find a broker. But, you can get a battery or two and are no longer tied to the PoCo's rate BS.

Regarding the historical rates; I don't think PG&E makes like a month by month dataset available... but I did jot these down for EVA


2016 Summer Peak $0.44 per kWh
2018 Summer Peak $0.47
2021 Summer Peak $0.56 (27% increase from 2016)

Of course, you should not charge your car during peak; but this rate hike is just killing you if you were cooking or running the AC like a normal person


Anyway, specific to the off-peak charging I have these rates jotted down.

2016 Summer Off-Peak $0.12 per kWh
2018 Summer Off-Peak $0.13
2021 Summer Off-Peak $0.16 (33% increase from 2016)

Those rates are why I asked if this made sense to get batteries, let alone an EV, to be forced onto EV2-a Rates

 

[holeydonut]

Those rates are why I asked if this made sense to get batteries, let alone an EV, to be forced onto EV2-a Rates

I've heard this argument go both ways. Some people say EV2A is better than E-TOU-C, since you can effectively plan when you export to the grid, and you will never take from the grid during peak time.

But on the flip side, PG&E makes it really hard to stay on E-TOU-C once you get Powerwalls and SGIP. So logically it seems like PG&E thinks E-TOU-C is better than EV2-A.

Regardless, I never see people baking in this TOU rate malarkey into their vaunted ROI calcs. I think it's because PG&E has done such a brilliant job obfuscating their billing structures, rates, tariffs, NBCs, fees, etc that it makes people see what they want to see.

Bottom line, if you want a stable source of reliable and cheap energy that won't 'surprise' you with BS in the next 10 years... don't go with your local power company. Buying PV+batteries is a way of locking in stability. If you want to see stability there's your ROI. If you are fine with PoCo BS, then don't get the batteries.

 

[miimura]

oh, i care (and notice). not much that can be done about it though.

i haven't consistently downloaded the EV rate sheet to capture all of the changes. does PGE keep the historical tariff sheets on their website?

PG&E does not archive the actual tariff sheets. However, they do have rate history. So, you can see the price changes, but not the other rule and schedule changes. Fortunately, those things usually don't have material changes. I have been watching these things since about 2012 and have copies of many of the historical tariff PDFs if you are interested. E-6 is the first rate schedule that I've seen that has changed schedule. In the past they just closed schedules to new customers, let old customers stay for a while, then kicked people out onto a currently offered plan some years later. I have personally gone from E-9A to EV-A to EV2-A.

Overall, IMHO, the main impact of the EV to EV2 change is the loss of Part-Peak solar NEM credits. On EV-A you get Part-Peak credit from 7am-2pm. That is pushed down to Off-Peak in EV2 until 3pm. Of course, the prices for each of the TOU periods are different, but the devaluation of solar generation is the primary cost driver for most customers.

 

[h2ofun]

I've heard this argument go both ways. Some people say EV2A is better than E-TOU-C, since you can effectively plan when you export to the grid, and you will never take from the grid during peak time.

But on the flip side, PG&E makes it really hard to stay on E-TOU-C once you get Powerwalls and SGIP. So logically it seems like PG&E thinks E-TOU-C is better than EV2-A.

Regardless, I never see people baking in this TOU rate malarkey into their vaunted ROI calcs. I think it's because PG&E has done such a brilliant job obfuscating their billing structures, rates, tariffs, NBCs, fees, etc that it makes people see what they want to see.

Bottom line, if you want a stable source of reliable and cheap energy that won't 'surprise' you with BS in the next 10 years... don't go with your local power company. Buying PV+batteries is a way of locking in stability. If you want to see stability there's your ROI. If you are fine with PoCo BS, then don't get the batteries.

In the winter, for folks like me with electric heat, the cost at peak on EV2-A is a big deal. If you have gas heat, then does not matter.

 

[holeydonut]

In the winter, for folks like me with electric heat, the cost at peak on EV2-A is a big deal. If you have gas heat, then does not matter.

You don’t think your 5 Powerwalls can carry you through peak time on a daily cycle?

PS: gas heating is expensive as hell too ...

 

[astrorob]

Overall, IMHO, the main impact of the EV to EV2 change is the loss of Part-Peak solar NEM credits. On EV-A you get Part-Peak credit from 7am-2pm. That is pushed down to Off-Peak in EV2 until 3pm. Of course, the prices for each of the TOU periods are different, but the devaluation of solar generation is the primary cost driver for most customers.

right - but i'm assuming that this might be somewhat beneficial with the powerwall - most of the charging will occur at off-peak and then hopefully it will run the house thru partial peak and peak. 9h is a long time to run for me since i only have 2 powerwalls. i'll probably be burning 50% every day but that's OK. power failures are pretty few and far between except for PSPS, and i'm sure i'll get storm watch before those.

but yeah, only in the middle of the summer will there be much solar to be sold back at peak.

 

[miimura]

right - but i'm assuming that this might be somewhat beneficial with the powerwall - most of the charging will occur at off-peak and then hopefully it will run the house thru partial peak and peak. 9h is a long time to run for me since i only have 2 powerwalls. i'll probably be burning 50% every day but that's OK. power failures are pretty few and far between except for PSPS, and i'm sure i'll get storm watch before those.

but yeah, only in the middle of the summer will there be much solar to be sold back at peak.

To me, the Powerwalls are just reducing the penalty of the EV2 schedule. So far this Spring, I have had only inconsequential Off-Peak solar export. My Powerwalls have been able to absorb almost all of my Off-Peak generation. As generation continues to rise and my 3pm-midnight usage stays relatively constant, I will inevitably have excess Off-Peak generation. Because I am up against the western hills, my solar drops off quickly in the afternoon and evening, leading to limited Peak exports.

 

[cali8484]

Does anyone have data on annual cost change after switching from EV-A to EV2-A with solar but no home battery? Is it closer to 10% higher or 100% higher?

 

[h2ofun]

You don’t think your 5 Powerwalls can carry you through peak time on a daily cycle?

PS: gas heating is expensive as hell too ...

Nope. 3 are connected to my heating. I use 30 60 kwh per day. No way solar recharges when some days in winter I only get like 3kwh for the entire day

 

[holeydonut]

Nope. 3 are connected to my heating. I use 30 60 kwh per day. No way solar recharges when some days in winter I only get like 3kwh for the entire day

Oh yeah, and you're probably banned from using firewood nowadays due to the fire risk...

 

[astrorob]

Does anyone have data on annual cost change after switching from EV-A to EV2-A with solar but no home battery? Is it closer to 10% higher or 100% higher?

it really depends on your usage but i ran mine with a crappy perl script that i wrote against consumption and generation data from 2 years ago, and my true ups would go from $200-$400 to $1200 or so under EV2-A without poweralls. E-TOU-C was actually better for me without the powerwalls, like $800-$900 per year.

 

[h2ofun]

it really depends on your usage but i ran mine with a crappy perl script that i wrote against consumption and generation data from 2 years ago, and my true ups would go from $200-$400 to $1200 or so under EV2-A without poweralls. E-TOU-C was actually better for me without the powerwalls, like $800-$900 per year.

This is what I am afraid of, but shall see. Luckily I have lots of solar, which does help a lot.

 

[holeydonut]

it really depends on your usage but i ran mine with a crappy perl script that i wrote against consumption and generation data from 2 years ago, and my true ups would go from $200-$400 to $1200 or so under EV2-A without poweralls. E-TOU-C was actually better for me without the powerwalls, like $800-$900 per year.

FWIW, my neighbor behind me (PV only but two Teslas) said his true-up went from $200 under his old TOU plan to $1,200 for what I believe is EV2-A. He was not pleased.

PG&E blamed that he was sheltering so he used more energy at home. But then he said he didn't hardly drive anywhere so his overall consumption wasn't too different from a total kWh perspective. But of course the off peak energy for charging is so much cheaper than peak energy... so you can see why he'd get slammed with such a large bill.

 

[h2ofun]

FWIW, my neighbor behind me (PV only but two Teslas) said his true-up went from $200 under his old TOU plan to $1,200 for what I believe is EV2-A. He was not pleased.

PG&E blamed that he was sheltering so he used more energy at home. But then he said he didn't hardly drive anywhere so his overall consumption wasn't too different from a total kWh perspective. But of course the off peak energy for charging is so much cheaper than peak energy... so you can see why he'd get slammed with such a large bill.

But this implies he was charging during peak rates?

 

[holeydonut]

But this implies he was charging during peak rates?

No, it implies he was running his air conditioner and cooking during peak times while his family sheltered in place. He said he has never charged his car during peak or shoulder time.

Although PG&E thought he may have been charging during peak time and lying about not charging during peak time. The guy seems really smart so I'm pretty sure he's not charging during peak times. Anyway, he has much more money than me so he's like - whatever, $1,200 sucks but I got more problems than PG&E to worry about. And that's the mentality of what PG&E is bettin' on.

 

[h2ofun]

No, it implies he was running his air conditioner and cooking during peak times while his family sheltered in place. He said he has never charged his car during peak or shoulder time.

Although PG&E thought he may have been charging during peak time and lying about not charging during peak time. The guy seems really smart so I'm pretty sure he's not charging during peak times. Anyway, he has much more money than me so he's like - whatever, $1,200 sucks but I got more problems than PG&E to worry about. And that's the mentality of what PG&E is bettin' on.

Whatever he was doing, he was running stuff the, like AC, at peak, what does he expect? He knew before he bought the cars his rate plan would change.

I knew the same before I got batteries. So, it is up to me now to manage it, not complain about PGE.

I guess I have pissed off PGE also since they say I will get an inspection. Maybe I should have donuts ready for them when they come out for the pictures.

 

[miimura]

Does anyone have data on annual cost change after switching from EV-A to EV2-A with solar but no home battery? Is it closer to 10% higher or 100% higher?

Since you have no Powerwall, the PG&E Rate Comparison Tool should be relatively accurate.

 

[holeydonut]

Whatever he was doing, he was running stuff the, like AC, at peak, what does he expect? He knew before he bought the cars his rate plan would change.

I knew the same before I got batteries. So, it is up to me now to manage it, not complain about PGE.

I guess I have pissed off PGE also since they say I will get an inspection. Maybe I should have donuts ready for them when they come out for the pictures.

I didn't say this guy was pissed at PG&E. He was just surprised by his bill going up so much.

Have you ever tried to convince your wife to not run the air conditioners when it's hot? Come on man, let's be realistic here. There's a reason the CAISO demand curve shapes the way it is during summertime, and it's not because people like sitting in the heat.

He kind of doesn't care about $1,200 so he's not really pissed at anyone. Me on the other hand, would be pissed about PG&E. But that's also why I wanted to get batteries to balance out the TOU.... because I didn't want to get pissed if PG&E changed my rates in 2025.

 

[h2ofun]

I didn't say this guy was pissed at PG&E. He was just surprised by his bill going up so much.

Have you ever tried to convince your wife to not run the air conditioners when it's hot? Come on man, let's be realistic here. There's a reason the CAISO demand curve shapes the way it is during summertime, and it's not because people like sitting in the heat.

He kind of doesn't care about $1,200 so he's not really pissed at anyone. Me on the other hand, would be pissed about PG&E. But that's also why I wanted to get batteries to balance out the TOU.... because I didn't want to get pissed if PG&E changed my rates in 2025.

Since I look at my PGE useage daily, I get no surprises. Its just if I knew this, I would crank up my AC before 4pm to get as cold as I could and then turn if off maybe. We shall see. Since I am hoping to have a nice large generation credit by the middle of the month, I might be able to really crank the AC, depending on when they True me up with moving me to EV2-a