Recent fire another reason all controls on screen are a bad idea!

[whitex]

Why? He was not hurt and the insurance should replace it. You don't need a $2000 an hour celebrity lawyer for that unless insurance stiffs you and even them you don't need on the next day tweeting. I addition I think that lawyer dropped representation today. New news about the owners occupation again that smells a bit. If my car caught on fire and I was not hurt I would not run out the next day and hire a lawyer nor would one represent me unless I paid them as there are no damages. On the other hand Tesla twists words no mater how they communicate

The owner may prefer not to file a claim against his own policy, possibly he wants to avoid having a claim on the policy (rate hit into the future, or a strike towards being dropped completely), or maybe he doesn't want to pay the deductible, or maybe he's looking for additional compensation for car rental while waiting for another car (most insurances max out car rental at 1 or 2 days of Plaid car category rental prices), or maybe looking for medical coverage which his own insurance doesn't have, or maybe looking for compensation for putting people and/or property at unnecessary risk due to negligence (which of course he'd have to prove first). Or maybe his own insurance company plans to sue Tesla for this, so they asked their client to not talk to anyone directly to no complicate the case. Who knows.

 

[EVDRVN]

How do you twist 1 in 250 cars spontaneously burst into flames when only a few hundred of all the cars on US roads catch fire each year for many reasons. Most of them not being new. Damn well need a fire suppression system of some kind.

"Each year, from 2014 to 2016, an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths; 1,300 injuries; and $1.1 billion in property loss. 1 These highway vehicle fires accounted for 13 percent of fires responded to by fire departments across the nation."

There has been no determination that this car "spontaneously burst into flames".

 

[EVDRVN]

The owner may prefer not to file a claim against his own policy, possibly he wants to avoid having a claim on the policy (rate hit into the future, or a strike towards being dropped completely), or maybe he doesn't want to pay the deductible, or maybe he's looking for additional compensation for car rental while waiting for another car (most insurances max out car rental at 1 or 2 days of Plaid car category rental prices), or maybe looking for medical coverage which his own insurance doesn't have, or maybe looking for compensation for putting people and/or property at unnecessary risk due to negligence (which of course he'd have to prove first). Or maybe his own insurance company plans to sue Tesla for this, so they asked their client to not talk to anyone directly to no complicate the case. Who knows.

Insurance companies investigate these fires of this value and will subrogate the cost to the responsible party. Also you don't need a celebrity lawyer the next day for something like this. The owner has billions in vested in Tesla supposedly and I'm sure the deductible is not a concern. This entire story smells. Perhaps the 'Crypto King" also does not like Elon's influence on his investment like others have demonstrated lately.

 

[CertLive]

Why? He was not hurt and the insurance should replace it. You don't need a $2000 an hour celebrity lawyer for that unless insurance stiffs you and even them you don't need on the next day tweeting. I addition I think that lawyer dropped representation today. New news about the owners occupation again that smells a bit. If my car caught on fire and I was not hurt I would not run out the next day and hire a lawyer nor would one represent me unless I paid them as there are no damages. On the other hand Tesla twists words no mater how they communicate

How do you twist 1 in 250 cars spontaneously burst into flames when only a few hundred off all the cars on US roads catch fire each year for many reasons. Most of them not being new. Damn well need a fire suppression system of some kind.

"Each year, from 2014 to 2016, an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths; 1,300 injuries; and $1.1 billion in property loss. 1 These highway vehicle fires accounted for 13 percent of fires responded to by fire departments across the nation."

There has been no determination that this car "spontaneously burst into flames".

That is insane numbers anyway…. but thousands missing in comment for some reason, true there could be many reasons but the car burned up, it was new and once it did there was no control. Battery fires need something extra to put them out quick as the increase in energy density needs more control. Its an issue that should be addressed in the design like a seatbelt or airbag.

 

[MP3Mike]

How do you twist 1 in 250 cars

How do you come up with "1 in 250" when Tesla says that they sold 1,890 this quarter. (Which are mostly going to be Model S Plaid/refresh LR vehicles.)

That is just a made up claim.

The owner may prefer not to file a claim against his own policy, possibly he wants to avoid having a claim on the policy (rate hit into the future, or a strike towards being dropped completely), or maybe he doesn't want to pay the deductible

That is part of why this is so weird. The Tesla warranty covers damage from a battery fire, even if it is caused by driver error, so his insurance doesn't even need to get involved for the vehicle replacement.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Totally and why it took over 2 hours to put out. But when you see so much detail going into how safe these cars are the vital safety with thermal runaway has not been addressed 10 years on. So why not invent a better containment safety system? Why not eject the battery? Etc idk its just insane to see this because there should be better sensors to detect this before even the power drops and save the people inside if they were knocked unconscious.

Depends on what you define as "put out".

I would point to the Woodlands fire and I expect this situation to be the same. They put out the fire in a few minutes in that case. They just stayed there longer and had a smaller stream of water to keep the pack cool and prevent flareups. There wasn't an active fire going.

Read the content, not just the headlines.
Woodlands Fire Chief: Lot Of Misinformation Out There About Tesla Crash & Fire
Woodlands fire chief says Tesla fire example of new technology causing issues

There is no need for a different containment system or battery ejection.

 

[CertLive]

How do you come up with "1 in 250" when Tesla says that they sold 1,890 this quarter. (Which are mostly going to be Model S Plaid/refresh LR vehicles.)

That is just a made up claim.


That is part of why this is so weird. The Tesla warranty covers damage from a battery fire, even if it is caused by driver error, so his insurance doesn't even need to get involved for the vehicle replacement.

250 plaid made up In customers hands?

 

[omarsultan]

Battery pack fires are slow moving fires--the pack does not explode, the car does not explode. If you go back a read the accounts of folks that hit road debris that punctured the pack (back before the under battery while was implemented), you will see they received warnings from the car, had time to safely pull over and exit the car, and, in one case, IIRC, had enough time to retrieve belongings from the car.

The pack itself is designed with internal baffles to slow the progress of a thermal runaway and also designed to direct and vent fire and hot gasses away from the passenger cabin. For example, in the prior Model S, the pack was designed to vent into the front wheel wells.

 

[CertLive]

Depends on what you define as "put out".

I would point to the Woodlands fire and I expect this situation to be the same. They put out the fire in a few minutes in that case. They just stayed there longer and had a smaller stream of water to keep the pack cool and prevent flareups. There wasn't an active fire going.

Read the content, not just the headlines.
Woodlands Fire Chief: Lot Of Misinformation Out There About Tesla Crash & Fire
Woodlands fire chief says Tesla fire example of new technology causing issues

There is no need for a different containment system or battery ejection.

So just what was the condition of the passenger cabin in both of these situations like? Lets say driver passes out? Regardless of how long it finally took to cool it down both cars look very crispy as both battery packs went up. Nothing to stop thermal runaway.

 

[CertLive]

Battery pack fires are slow moving fires--the pack does not explode, the car does not explode. If you go back a read the accounts of folks that hit road debris that punctured the pack (back before the under battery while was implemented), you will see they received warnings from the car, had time to safely pull over and exit the car, and, in one case, IIRC, had enough time to retrieve belongings from the car.

The pack itself is designed with internal baffles to slow the progress of a thermal runaway and also designed to direct and vent fire and hot gasses away from the passenger cabin. For example, in the prior Model S, the pack was designed to vent into the front wheel wells.

Did you say slow moving fires….

 

[Dan D.]

Did you say slow moving fires….

EV fires are different from the ICE fires though. Tesla's batteries are designed to smoke, develop heat over a few minutes. THEN they ignite into a raging somewhat unstoppable inferno until they can be cooled - which takes a good amount of time and water. They don't explode with shrapnel so much as intensely burn (they can explode sometimes). Omar's point is that they give you time to get out - as long as you CAN get out I suppose.

ICE fires can burn hot, explode over time, explode instantly, sometimes explode before there is flame. Generally they are quicker to put out and stay out.

Depending on the type of crash or situation neither is great, each type of fire has its pros/cons - as it were. Tesla was supposed to be using LFP (lithium iron phosphate) which might be safer than the lithium metal oxide. I'm not sure what the status of their battery chemistry is, or how well they have been implemented.

Safety | Lithium Werks | Inherently Safe Lithium Ion Batteries

Lithium Werks Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries are inherently safer than other lithium batteries.

lithiumwerks.com

Elon Musk says Tesla is shifting more electric cars to LFP batteries over nickel supply concerns

Elon Musk is indicating that Tesla could be shifting more electric cars to LFP battery cells over some concerns about...

electrek.co

 

[csphili]

Reminder that the driver of the vehicle:

1. Initially fled the scene of the incident; first responders were not able to contact him until hours later
2. Issued public statements via law firms on each coast within hours of the incident
3. Falsely claimed that he was trapped in the car and "could have died"
4. Removed the vehicle wreckage from fire department storage at his own expense and sent it to a private facility less than 24 hours after the incident--prior to the fire department investigating the cause of the fire
5. Is a top executive at the digital asset trading division of a major hedge fund (Susquehanna) which recently held major stakes in $TSLA

 

[Dan D.]

Insurance companies investigate these fires of this value and will subrogate the cost to the responsible party. Also you don't need a celebrity lawyer the next day for something like this. The owner has billions in vested in Tesla supposedly and I'm sure the deductible is not a concern. This entire story smells. Perhaps the 'Crypto King" also does not like Elon's influence on his investment like others have demonstrated lately.

Perhaps a hypothetical question for the Financials thread people, but if you greatly benefit from a change in a company's share price change, from a fire that YOU have caused/been involved in, does that constitute insider trading? I wonder why he was so upset that he ran to the lawyers? Perhaps that's just what he does for anything and it's not personal against Tesla.

This may or may not yet fall under the new NHTSA reporting scheme, but it will certainly be investigated regardless.

 

[stopcrazypp]

So just what was the condition of the passenger cabin in both of these situations like? Lets say driver passes out? Regardless of how long it finally took to cool it down both cars look very crispy as both battery packs went up. Nothing to stop thermal runaway.

The passenger cabin is full of flammable materials, no car is immune from it burning up. You can go on google images to find "crash fire" and see tons of examples of the entire cabin going up in flames.
It's unrealistic to expect a fireproof cabin in a common passenger vehicle. Others already pointed out the risk mitigation features Tesla have done, so I won't repeat them.

 

[qdeathstar]

only a few hundred of all the cars on US roads catch fire each year for many reasons.

There is a car fire every few days in my city alone. It’s not even that big of a city....

Totally and why it took over 2 hours to put out. But when you see so much detail going into how safe these cars are the vital safety with thermal runaway has not been addressed 10 years on. So why not invent a better containment safety system? Why not eject the battery?

Eject the battery on to what? Someone else’s car? A pedestrian. Maybe once we have have self driving batteries ejection will work, till then sounds dangerous.

.

 

[WhiteWi]

Another hit piece by a Tesla short

 

[Dan D.]

There is a car fire every few days in my city alone. It’s not even that big of a city....



Eject the battery on to what? Someone else’s car? A pedestrian. Maybe once we have have self driving batteries ejection will work, till then sounds dangerous.

"Eject the battery" at least gets it away from the car so it burns up some distance away. Dunno if it's a great solution. Sounds a little too Star Trek.
Why not eject the driver and passengers? Or is that a little too James Bond/Falcon 9

I do like the idea of the car detecting a serious fire and taking some immediate unlocking, verbal notification, and other safety mitigations.

 

[qdeathstar]

new theory by me....

 

[ThomasD]

So this car fire was arson

 

[omarsultan]

Did you say slow moving fires….

The pack is slow burning, the relevant bit you left I because I suppose that does not fit your story. The rest of the car is going to burn like any other car.