Recent fire another reason all controls on screen are a bad idea!

[drtimhill]

I'm very glad to hear these questions being asked. I still don't hear enough talk about the laminated windows being too tough to break. Somehow that hasn't gotten through to people. You can't break them guys. In most cases you will not be able to escape via the windows! That is the point, they keep you inside during a violent crash / rollover, but cannot be removed without rescue tools and much effort. It's not just Tesla, laminated side windows are being adopted industry-wide for their enhanced safety and noise reduction. Their strength is also a danger.

Indeed it is a danger. But so is the danger of being ejected from the car during a serious crash. Do you know which one carries the greater risk?

Some years ago an attempt was made to mandate seat belts on school buses. Obvious, right? Nope. The measure was defeated. Why? Because someone argued (with no actual statistics) that children might get trapped on the bus in an emergency. Sure, children might get trapped .. rarely. In an emergency when they had to get out in a hurry. Also very rarely. So seat belts that would save lives most of the time were not mandated because they might far less frequently hamper escaping. That's just plain stupid.

The fact is, 99% of the time you are far safer inside the car both during and after a crash. Sure, the new windows dont break as easily. And yes, we will one day read about some poor person who as a result died. That's very sad, of course. But you wont read about all the many people that unbreakable window helped save. And you will vote the seat belts off the school bus too.

 

[Dan D.]

Indeed it is a danger. But so is the danger of being ejected from the car during a serious crash. Do you know which one carries the greater risk?

Some years ago an attempt was made to mandate seat belts on school buses. Obvious, right? Nope. The measure was defeated. Why? Because someone argued (with no actual statistics) that children might get trapped on the bus in an emergency. Sure, children might get trapped .. rarely. In an emergency when they had to get out in a hurry. Also very rarely. So seat belts that would save lives most of the time were not mandated because they might far less frequently hamper escaping. That's just plain stupid.

The fact is, 99% of the time you are far safer inside the car both during and after a crash. Sure, the new windows dont break as easily. And yes, we will one day read about some poor person who as a result died. That's very sad, of course. But you wont read about all the many people that unbreakable window helped save. And you will vote the seat belts off the school bus too.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I said as much:

"laminated side windows are being adopted industry-wide for their enhanced safety and noise reduction. Their strength is also a danger."

They will reduce injuries and death due to their ability to maintain a barrier between the occupants and the outside such as in a crash or rollover. Those situations are real and numerous. But we will still hear about the people who could not be saved because they were trapped inside. That type of accident is less frequent but equally deserving of attention. IMO returning to manual opening controls would be a sensible compromise.

 

[captanzuelo]

The Ripper™

rescue42.com

Nifty tool. I guess its a good thing I have an earlier MY without the laminated glass. For my next car, with laminate, I will forego the punch tool and carry a hacksaw instead

 

[captanzuelo]

Some years ago an attempt was made to mandate seat belts on school buses. Obvious, right? Nope. The measure was defeated. Why? Because someone argued (with no actual statistics) that children might get trapped on the bus in an emergency.

They probably also took into account, that school buses are built like tanks. Reinforced everything, and just their sheer size and weight ensures that they will emerge the victor in any vehicle collision

 

[Dan D.]

This conflicts with the the desire for the user to not grab the manual release in daily use (which has to do with how frameless windows operate). Plenty of cars have similar designs where you have to look for the manual release (it's deliberately not the first thing you intuitively grab), but it's there. Tesla's design is already better than some of them. GM's cars have them on the floor.

Well if they insist on frameless windows then they can still look for a solution to emergency door opening that also allows normal operation day-to-day.

re: frameless doors that cannot easily be opened manually, because the window needs to be lowered first. Forcing open the door with the manual handle risks window and seal damage

I can picture a manual door handle for frameless windows where the handle first claws down the window if it's closed and then the remaining action opens the door. No electronic control needed to open the door manually, and no damage to the car.

 

[MP3Mike]

Are you sure that is still true with current Model S? Tesla changes things all the time. What Elon said years ago doesn't count.

It is still in the official warranty on their website: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf

 

[CyberGus]

Obvious that it is a door opener. Not necessarily the “manual” method. I would prefer manufacturers to just keep door handles like the original S to where if you pull farther, it just opens the mechanical way.

IMHO there should be a sensor on the physical handle that initiates the lowering of the window, just as with the button. It will still work when there is no power, but avoids damage under normal circumstances. It could also beep and display an on-screen tutorial ("Press here to open the door").

 

[CyberGus]

Indeed it is a danger. But so is the danger of being ejected from the car during a serious crash. Do you know which one carries the greater risk?

I rolled my first car when I fell asleep on a long drive. Everything went flying out of the car, including the wallet out of my back pocket. (!!?!) Fortunately I was belted in.

However, I had instinctively covered my head with my arms when it started to roll, and later discovered glass and gravel embedded in the wounds on the back of my hands...each time the car rolled, my hands were scraping the asphalt through the broken windshield. At least it wasn't my face!

I'm a much better driver now lol

 

[sorka]

Other than the hidden releases under the carpet? Mine does not. The rear handles have no mechanical linkage to the door release.

I was responding to the statement that the rear doors don't have a mechanical release. They in fact do.

 

[dark cloud]

It is still in the official warranty on their website: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf

View attachment 681120

I believe the wording changed after this guy's battery went up in flames. Everyone remember this one?

Tesla says someone fired a bullet into battery pack of a Model S that caught on fire - Electrek

 

[whitex]

It is still in the official warranty on their website: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf

View attachment 681120

Thinking about it, this is Tesla warranty, so will only cover fixing or replacing the car on Tesla schedule. I'm thinking no comparable car rental, no medical coverage (I'm sure by damage they don't mean to your health), etc, so insurance would still be needed and possibly a lawsuit to recover any other costs caused by such fire if it can be proved the fire was caused by Tesla cutting corners in engineering or manufacturing.

 

[BrandonLive]

Reminder that the driver of the vehicle:

1. Initially fled the scene of the incident; first responders were not able to contact him until hours later
2. Issued public statements via law firms on each coast within hours of the incident
3. Falsely claimed that he was trapped in the car and "could have died"
4. Removed the vehicle wreckage from fire department storage at his own expense and sent it to a private facility less than 24 hours after the incident--prior to the fire department investigating the cause of the fire
5. Is a top executive at the digital asset trading division of a major hedge fund (Susquehanna) which recently held major stakes in $TSLA

What is your source for #1? I haven’t seen that reporter anywhere.

 

[AMPd]

EV fires are different from the ICE fires though. Tesla's batteries are designed to smoke, develop heat over a few minutes. THEN they ignite into a raging somewhat unstoppable inferno until they can be cooled - which takes a good amount of time and water. They don't explode with shrapnel so much as intensely burn (they can explode sometimes). Omar's point is that they give you time to get out - as long as you CAN get out I suppose.

ICE fires can burn hot, explode over time, explode instantly, sometimes explode before there is flame. Generally they are quicker to put out and stay out.

Depending on the type of crash or situation neither is great, each type of fire has its pros/cons - as it were. Tesla was supposed to be using LFP (lithium iron phosphate) which might be safer than the lithium metal oxide. I'm not sure what the status of their battery chemistry is, or how well they have been implemented.

Safety | Lithium Werks | Inherently Safe Lithium Ion Batteries

Lithium Werks Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries are inherently safer than other lithium batteries.

lithiumwerks.com

Elon Musk says Tesla is shifting more electric cars to LFP batteries over nickel supply concerns

Elon Musk is indicating that Tesla could be shifting more electric cars to LFP battery cells over some concerns about...

electrek.co

Gasoline powered cars don’t explode.

 

[Dan D.]

Gasoline powered cars don’t explode.

Burst into intense flames then.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1386445953276649474

https://twitter.com/x/status/1383990838166884362

 

[Axel]

See its very convenient to keep pulling out the ice cars do this card but its more of a responsibility to tackle it now than roast people in their cars after a collision. Thermal runaway should not be given a chance to run its course no matter who the manufacturer is.

Seems pretty reasonable to compare ICE to EV. Driving is one of the more dangerous things we do on a daily basis, and the only options we really have is ICE or EV.

Making thermal runaway impossible is probably impossible, next best option is to reduce risk. You may want to read up on some of the older blogs that list out some of engineering that goes into make big packs safe:

From 2013 when a Model S battery got punctured: Model S Fire
Original roadster battery, 2007: The Most Coddled Automotive Battery Ever?

I’m very curious what actually happened to this battery pack. It takes a *lot* to cause runaway thermal events, something is missing from this story.

 

[drtimhill]

They probably also took into account, that school buses are built like tanks. Reinforced everything, and just their sheer size and weight ensures that they will emerge the victor in any vehicle collision

I think you are confusing the bus surviving with the children surviving. Sure, the bus can be built like a tank, but if you are a passenger and the bus hits a brick wall, you are going to be in a bad way without a seat belt or similar restraint.

 

[CyberGus]

Gasoline powered cars don’t explode.

 

[CertLive]

That dude at the back had very high blood alcohol levels.

 

[CertLive]

Seems pretty reasonable to compare ICE to EV. Driving is one of the more dangerous things we do on a daily basis, and the only options we really have is ICE or EV.

Making thermal runaway impossible is probably impossible, next best option is to reduce risk. You may want to read up on some of the older blogs that list out some of engineering that goes into make big packs safe:

From 2013 when a Model S battery got punctured: Model S Fire
Original roadster battery, 2007: The Most Coddled Automotive Battery Ever?

I’m very curious what actually happened to this battery pack. It takes a *lot* to cause runaway thermal events, something is missing from this story.

Solid state batteries are the fix I would assume. More capacity, better life and do not explode.

 

[CyberGus]

Solid state batteries are the fix I would assume. More capacity, better life and do not explode.

A functional solid-state battery would be superior to Li-ion battery is most every respect. However, they would still be hazardous.

The electrical lines running through your house have no anode, nor cathode, nor electrolyte of any kind, and yet they still cause fires.