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Recent fire another reason all controls on screen are a bad idea!

CertLive

Member
Dec 15, 2019
638
380
United Kindom
A functional solid-state battery would be superior to Li-ion battery is most every respect. However, they would still be hazardous.

The electrical lines running through your house have no anode, nor cathode, nor electrolyte of any kind, and yet they still cause fires.
What about a cell that instantly dries out when exposed to air from a puncture or rapid expansion of fire retardant foam on puncture per cell? Could each cell be filled with a gas that when hit and depleted renders the cell or pack safe? Battery becomes recoverable and fixable? It just seems in 2021 that runaway should be stoppable with some isolating material. NASA made the common bulkhead with 2 drastically different temperatures can each pack of cells within the total battery be isolated with that?
 

David29

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 1, 2015
2,260
1,915
DEDHAM, MA
re: frameless doors that cannot easily be opened manually, because the window needs to be lowered first. Forcing open the door with the manual handle risks window and seal damage

I can picture a manual door handle for frameless windows where the handle first claws down the window if it's closed and then the remaining action opens the door. No electronic control needed to open the door manually, and no damage to the car.
As for frameless windows, I think, and have said before on these pages, that the frameless windows are the single worst design choice Tesla made in designing the Model S. They annoy me no end, and so far as I can see they have absolutely no redeeming value. This argument just adds to their negative value -- rather than construct elaborate escape features to "protect" the frameless windows, put in window frames!
 

captanzuelo

Member
May 28, 2020
507
706
los angeles
I think you are confusing the bus surviving with the children surviving. Sure, the bus can be built like a tank, but if you are a passenger and the bus hits a brick wall, you are going to be in a bad way without a seat belt or similar restraint.
I am referring to a Bus/Car collision, which probably happens every weekday in the U.S. How many times in the history of school buses has a bus smashed into a brick wall at speed?
 

croman

Active Member
Nov 21, 2016
4,916
7,148
Chicago, IL
As for frameless windows, I think, and have said before on these pages, that the frameless windows are the single worst design choice Tesla made in designing the Model S. They annoy me no end, and so far as I can see they have absolutely no redeeming value. This argument just adds to their negative value -- rather than construct elaborate escape features to "protect" the frameless windows, put in window frames!
Isn't the point aesthetics? They look pretty cool but I admit there are many downsides. I can't really think of any other positives for frameless windows.
 

BooMan

Member
Oct 28, 2018
109
57
Detroit
Dunno, will have to see. Yeah, if you leave seat or exit, at low speeds it shifts into Park. Software (as we know) isn't always dependable with Tesla though, sensors don't always work, electronics fail.
Also note that car was on fire so software may no longer work, perhaps
 

BooMan

Member
Oct 28, 2018
109
57
Detroit
Reminder that the driver of the vehicle:

1. Initially fled the scene of the incident; first responders were not able to contact him until hours later
2. Issued public statements via law firms on each coast within hours of the incident
3. Falsely claimed that he was trapped in the car and "could have died"
4. Removed the vehicle wreckage from fire department storage at his own expense and sent it to a private facility less than 24 hours after the incident--prior to the fire department investigating the cause of the fire
5. Is a top executive at the digital asset trading division of a major hedge fund (Susquehanna) which recently held major stakes in $TSLA

:rolleyes:
I’m curious on #3. How do you know that this person falsely claimed to have had trouble getting out of the vehicle in this incident?
 

BooMan

Member
Oct 28, 2018
109
57
Detroit
Isn't the point aesthetics? They look pretty cool but I admit there are many downsides. I can't really think of any other positives for frameless windows.
Weight savings is the obvious one. One clear example is weight diff between a Jeep wrangler door (frame) vs the lower weight door on the new Ford bronco (frameless)
 
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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,953
2,452
Seattle
You brought up the brick wall, not me. I think a seatbelt would probably cause internal hemorrhaging if any vehicle ran into an immovable object, such as a brick wall. Air bags on the other hand...
Whereas if they weren't wearing a seatbelt they would of course be fine? The point being that seat belts protect the occupants of a vehicle from serious injury in almost every serious accident scenario. Making the bus strong enough to survive a collision with a car or wall or anything is irrelevant as long as the passenger compartment maintains integrity.

And of course the main issue here was to illustrate that you cannot make safety decisions based on knee-jerk panic reactions to a single incident. That's just hysteria. You need to look at all the scenarios and weigh probabilities and consequences with care and diligence.
 

FunSecured

Member
Sep 7, 2019
110
236
Laguna Beach
There have been deaths in a Tesla where drivers were burned following an accident. Impossible to know if they died because of the accident itself, or because the car caught fire and they were injured and not able to get out of the car themselves due to the injury or were already passed on. Being that Tesla's are the safest cars in the world when it comes to impact, one would be reasonable to think they may have survived the impact, but not been able to move due to being stuck in the car from the impact or injuries.

Also according to this article, the car was engulfed very quickly, but who knows if that's an exaggeration from a driver in shock at the moment? He did state he saw smoke, struggled to figure out how to get out and right after he got out, the car was engulfed in flames. So not sure it takes all that long for a battery fire to get going pretty quickly, at least in some circumstances.

But again, my post wasn't about electric cars catching fire. As noted, it's rare. It's rare for any car. The post was more focused on how Tesla's innovation toward driverless cars too soon could be adding more danger while they still do require drivers and likely will for quite some time. I went back to the Model S, after having had a Model 3, primarily because the S was easier to operate safely and without distraction. I found myself distracted from the road far more often in the Model 3. The new Model S has taken things even further by removing the shifter, blinker, auto pilot and wiper stalks and removed the large horn button. Not to mention, chopping off half of the steering wheel's real estate. When I've had to swerve to avoid sudden object, I was happy my full steering wheel was there. All the new stuff is "cool", but, not practical and arguably less safe than it used to be. Of course, not everyone will agree, but being that just the Model 3, which still retains two stalks and a shifter, was too far for my own personal driving preference and self assured security feeling within my own car, the new Model S would certainly reduce my confidence in being able to handle panic / emergency situations.
So, I get what you’re saying and in the , am not trying to dismiss what is your personal experience or comfortability, or preference…just adding some contrast, in that I’ve the refreshed S and have been driving it for nearly a week now.

So, my experience has been/is, that there is a relatively small learning curve/muscle memory that has to be stepped over for some of the new features. BUT…where things like the removal of turn stalks in favor of push button turn indicators are concerned…once you’ve stepped over than muscle memory, the way the Yoke is set up for turns, is actually….Excellent, more intuitive, more conveniently located, requires less movement and energy and time and is..a wonderful innovative change.

You will have to experience it to truly appreciate the subtle benefit I suppose, but it really is MUCH easier and more logical than the use of an old school turn stalk.

in life, we get used to what we get used to and in this, I really do think it’s simply a matter of all of us having grown up for years having it be one and only one way and therefore, we’ve thought that best.

It’s ..actually…not (in my opinion now).

Yes..different.

Yes, muscle memory stands in the way for a few times initially, but ultimately…better none the less.

Being able to fully see the screen in front of the yoke (versus trying to look over or under or through the steering wheel) is just…wow. Great and So nice to not have that annoyance anymore.

Initating FSD or turning it off now is super convenient and you can configure as literally one push.

It’s right at your thumb and honestly, once ur familiar, NONE of the stuff needs taking ur eyes off the road and is quicker and better than say, how you initiate FSD on the 3 or Y or old school stalk style of the older version S or X

For freeway driving and faster driving where your turns have less overall span, the Yoke is just…better and joy, the ONLY area I think IS more of adjustment and you have to learn a “little” different way of doing things (or being more aware until you do) is with the slower sweeping turns where your doing hand over hand on the wheel;

and for which the yoke is fully capable, but you just need to figure out for you, what way you like best to hold as you turn (whether your palming the yoke or going hand over hand or, etc.)

Getting out of the car though IS a bit weird now, as..I never realized (till the yoke) that I apparently (historically) would grab the top of the steering wheel normally to aid in my exit. Not there (lol).
 

FunSecured

Member
Sep 7, 2019
110
236
Laguna Beach
I -have- the Yoke and don’t agree, at all.

Turns are more intuitive, easier, better without the old school hardware.

They take little time to overcome decades of muscle memory in the (“this is the way we’ve always done it,” or…”If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mentality; as just because that’s the way it’s always been, absolutely doesn’t mean it’s the best way).

So is activation and de-activation of FSD.

Have you even driven with the Yoke?

You speak in absolutes, as if, somehow, ultimate authority in this arena, remarkably, without even having experienced. Disagree.
 

David29

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Aug 1, 2015
2,260
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DEDHAM, MA
Isn't the point aesthetics? They look pretty cool but I admit there are many downsides. I can't really think of any other positives for frameless windows.
I suspect you are correct. But it is only apparent that the windows are frameless if the windows are all down AND a door is open. Otherwise, you really cannot tell. That combination isn't likely to be used very often. A lot of people rarely drive with their windows all open. So I would argue there are very few opportunities to show off your "convertible look," if that is what the intention is. So what the heck is the point?
The frameless windows complicate the door opening mechanism. Besides the business discussed in this thread of how to avoid opening the door with the wrong release unintentionally, there is also the extra complication and wear/tear on the window mechanism every single time any of the doors is opened! And for those of us in the snowbelt, they are a pain because you have to be extra careful to fully clear ice off the windows in the winter, because otherwise you can have various problems with opening and/or closing the doors. Definitely a royal pain! A perfect example of the "California attitude" on the designers' part. I was stunned when they continued the error in subsequent models, even in the truck, which should be more practical. (Nobody but nobody would build a pickup truck with frameless windows!)
 
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Dan D.

Member
Dec 7, 2020
698
797
Vancouver, BC
Hope you never have to fire your .45 in a closed vehicle. Do you carry ear protection?
While a good thought ; ) firing a bulled at a laminated window will just put a hole in it. Unless you can climb through a bullet hole:

Breaching Glass
A third variety of glass is laminated. Vehicle windshields
[and side windows] are a lamination of two layers of glass on the outside with a very strong plastic layer between. As we know from the FBI ammunition testing protocols, virtually any bullet will penetrate laminated windshield glass, but the bullets are often severely damaged in the process. Even after a bullet penetration, laminated glass is very difficult to breach adequately to get a hole large enough to permit entry. [my edit]

 

FunSecured

Member
Sep 7, 2019
110
236
Laguna Beach
Hope you never have to fire your .45 in a closed vehicle. Do you carry ear protection?
😂. Well…that’s a valid point. I guess if it’s that serious (to warrant capping off a bunch of rounds), relationally, the hearing loss would prove smaller price then the likely alternative cost. That said, think I’ll shoot for the mechanical door open. ;-)
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,706
8,049
Seattle area, WA
…where things like the removal of turn stalks in favor of push button turn indicators are concerned…once you’ve stepped over than muscle memory,
I wonder if now, that you have retrained yourself, you could hit any blinker button, the horn, and not hit wipers or horn by accident if we we to put a barrier preventing you from looking at the yoke, at any point during turning, lane changes, etc. This would test your muscle memory, and see if muscle memory really works. I suspect when the wheel if more than 90 degrees turned, your muscle memory would probably not work well trying to signal or even hit the horn, but of course I don't have one so this is pure speculation.

the way the Yoke is set up for turns, is actually….Excellent, more intuitive, more conveniently located, requires less movement and energy and time and is..a wonderful innovative change.
How is it better and more intuitive for turning than a round wheel? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but how is having less options where to grab the wheel so much better setup for turns? Do you think perhaps handle bars would be even better? Or a single or dual joystick controls where there is only one place to hold them?
 
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