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Recent fire another reason all controls on screen are a bad idea!

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,836
5,763
I wonder if now, that you have retrained yourself, you could hit any blinker button, the horn, and not hit wipers or horn by accident if we we to put a barrier preventing you from looking at the yoke, at any point during turning, lane changes, etc. This would test your muscle memory, and see if muscle memory really works. I suspect when the wheel if more than 90 degrees turned, your muscle memory would probably not work well trying to signal or even hit the horn, but of course I don't have one so this is pure speculation.
There are raised areas dividing the L/R Turn signal and wipers/voice command, so I think those would be fine. The horn and AP button probably will be easiest to mistake. I think they'll have to be referenced by the relative position with the scroll wheel, but it'll be better if Tesla added a divider there too.
 

FunSecured

Member
Sep 7, 2019
110
236
Laguna Beach
I wonder if now, that you have retrained yourself, you could hit any blinker button, the horn, and not hit wipers or horn by accident if we we to put a barrier preventing you from looking at the yoke, at any point during turning, lane changes, etc. This would test your muscle memory, and see if muscle memory really works. I suspect when the wheel if more than 90 degrees turned, your muscle memory would probably not work well trying to signal or even hit the horn, but of course I don't have one so this is pure speculation.


How is it better and more intuitive for turning than a round wheel? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but how is having less options where to grab the wheel so much better setup for turns? Do you think perhaps handle bars would be even better? Or a single or dual joystick controls where there is only one place to hold them?
I wonder if now, that you have retrained yourself, you could hit any blinker button, the horn, and not hit wipers or horn by accident if we we to put a barrier preventing you from looking at the yoke, at any point during turning, lane changes, etc. This would test your muscle memory, and see if muscle memory really works. I suspect when the wheel if more than 90 degrees turned, your muscle memory would probably not work well trying to signal or even hit the horn, but of course I don't have one so this is pure speculation.


How is it better and more intuitive for turning than a round wheel? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but how is having less options where to grab the wheel so much better setup for turns? Do you think perhaps handle bars would be even better? Or a single or dual joystick controls where there is only one place to hold th
I wonder if now, that you have retrained yourself, you could hit any blinker button, the horn, and not hit wipers or horn by accident if we we to put a barrier preventing you from looking at the yoke, at any point during turning, lane changes, etc. This would test your muscle memory, and see if muscle memory really works. I suspect when the wheel if more than 90 degrees turned, your muscle memory would probably not work well trying to signal or even hit the horn, but of course I don't have one so this is pure speculation.


How is it better and more intuitive for turning than a round wheel? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but how is having less options where to grab the wheel so much better setup for turns? Do you think perhaps handle bars would be even better? Or a single or dual joystick controls where there is only one place to hold them?
When I say (for me) it is better and more intuitive for turns, I was specifically talking in relation to the -turn indicators- versus traditional turn stalks.

Generally, turn indicators are placed on -in advance- of your turn and where the new turn indicators are physically on the Yoke, it is right by your thumb snd so close that it makes the movement quick, easy (and yes, over time think quite intuitive

As someone cited, there is a physical raised divider between the left and right arrow and you can feel the raised section as your thumb is on the yoke. I’m suspecting if you had the car for a week, you’d rapidly see what I mean about it being pretty intuitive and effortless where the turn indicators specifically are concerned.

While your sarcasm (about the joystick, etc…) is noted, I’d say…I’m simply afffording those here interested, my personal experience/opinion re: the new S, which is genteelly very favorable, and includes my experience with the Yoke.

In this, I find the Yoke fits the style of the car, looks awesome and in particular, for things like freeway driving, I really like it’s feel and function. On the more infrequent tight turns, I find the yoke s non issue and it just takes a little getting used to

I also think the add d visibility it affords on the desk and viewing screen is genius.

I DO agree with one of the comment made about the horn / wipers-and being relatively easy to inadvertently activate the wipers…but that is super minor vs the sea of good I think the yoke brings.
 
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Wol747

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
1,063
530
Tea Gardens
>>Generally, turn indicators are placed on -in advance- of your turn and where the new turn indicators are physically on the Yoke, it is right by your thumb snd so close that it makes the movement quick, easy (and yes, over time think quite intuitive<<

Unless you are one of those who never indicates he's about to turn out of a roundabout, that's not correct. PROPER mini roundabouts require virtually 90' turns entering and exiting - your relevant buttons could be anywhere within 270 degrees halfway round!
 

TessP100D

Member
Jan 15, 2018
443
295
La Quinta, Ca
I agree 100%. Having just traded my C8 in on the Tesla Plaid and still owning a C7Z and having taken both on road courses and HPDE, the Plaid yolk is a joke. That is the first thing most other high performance car owners have asked me and I'm honest when I give feedback about things based on my experience and ownership, not just what I read on the internet or hear from somebody else reading on the internet. The C8 steering wheel is the best steering wheel I have ever placed my hands on. The only other place I have used a yolk is flying co-pilot in an airplane. If you look at a high performance aircraft...they don't use a yolk either they use a stick. If Tesla called today and said would you like a standard steering wheel replacement for the Yolk I would say gladly. I have been driving the Plaid with the yolk now for over a week and it is cumbersome to manage in some circumstances. Fine when driving in a straight line and managing corners at speed...not so much in day to day traffic handling sharp slow speed turns and u turns. Example I was making a U turn on the green light and a driver pulled up on the other side of the intersection to make a free right (which happens frequently) turning into my lane, I had to quickly adjust to avoid hitting the car making a free right. It meant I had to rapidly change the steering wheel positions when in full clock....it was challenging and I have been to race driving schools and tracked different cars for many years. It's only a matter of time until it causes and accident with an inexperienced driver.
Exactly. The dumb ass who posted the first night he got his new S, could barely handle the thing it was so bad. Then he drove over a 100mph at night on city streets passing cars. Come on Elon. Just stop.
 
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CyberGus

Not Just a Member
May 5, 2020
1,021
2,231
Austin, TX
>>Generally, turn indicators are placed on -in advance- of your turn and where the new turn indicators are physically on the Yoke, it is right by your thumb snd so close that it makes the movement quick, easy (and yes, over time think quite intuitive<<

Unless you are one of those who never indicates he's about to turn out of a roundabout, that's not correct. PROPER mini roundabouts require virtually 90' turns entering and exiting - your relevant buttons could be anywhere within 270 degrees halfway round!
You're supposed to signal in roundabouts? lolwhut
 
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Jlwine

Member
Jun 21, 2016
159
185
Indianapolis
I suppose there's a point to this video, but the visuals are upsetting : )


I watched the video, and I can say in my opinion there was not much of a point to it, but I can also say it was impressive to see how many hits from a sledge hammer it took before it broke. Obviously not full and hard swings--but I would have thougt just a tap from a sledge hammer would smash it.
 

Wol747

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
1,063
530
Tea Gardens
You're supposed to signal in roundabouts? lolwhut
It's 16 years since I lived in the US and I can't remember if it's mandatory there, but most developed parts of the world require you to indicate you're about to exit a roundabout. In any case it's just courtesy letting someone ahead trying to enter that you'll be turning off before him.
 

CyberGus

Not Just a Member
May 5, 2020
1,021
2,231
Austin, TX
It's 16 years since I lived in the US and I can't remember if it's mandatory there, but most developed parts of the world require you to indicate you're about to exit a roundabout. In any case it's just courtesy letting someone ahead trying to enter that you'll be turning off before him.
"Traffic Q&A: What are the rules on signaling in a roundabout?"

Maybe since I'm entering to the left and exiting to the right I should just turn on my hazards?
 

Wol747

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
1,063
530
Tea Gardens
Since Tesla is selling cars worldwide they need to think a little more about different procedures <g>.

Every country I can remember driving in has roundabout rules, and generally say something like: (In LHD countries)
Get in the correct lane before it
If taking the first exit indicate left all the way
If going straight on don't indicate until just before exiting, then left
If exiting to the right indicate right before and within the roundabout and indicate left just before exiting.
I CAN remember the consternation when they started roundabouts in Naples, Fl - the local papers had screams about them for months!
 

dark cloud

Active Member
Apr 14, 2018
2,073
2,389
BC
Since Tesla is selling cars worldwide they need to think a little more about different procedures <g>.

Every country I can remember driving in has roundabout rules, and generally say something like: (In LHD countries)
Get in the correct lane before it
If taking the first exit indicate left all the way
If going straight on don't indicate until just before exiting, then left
If exiting to the right indicate right before and within the roundabout and indicate left just before exiting.
I CAN remember the consternation when they started roundabouts in Naples, Fl - the local papers had screams about them for months!
The classic example

 
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Wol747

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
1,063
530
Tea Gardens
>>Though FSD is certainly MIA atm, Tesla has never claimed it was L5, so saying its a fraud because it isnt L5 is silly.<<

Although I’d agree it’s not fraud in the criminal sense, Tesla has constantly used the phrase FSD with the word “robotaxi” as if they are synonymous.
l fail to see how a robotaxi could be other than level 5, so it makes sense to conflate FSD with 5!
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,836
5,763
>>Though FSD is certainly MIA atm, Tesla has never claimed it was L5, so saying its a fraud because it isnt L5 is silly.<<

Although I’d agree it’s not fraud in the criminal sense, Tesla has constantly used the phrase FSD with the word “robotaxi” as if they are synonymous.
l fail to see how a robotaxi could be other than level 5, so it makes sense to conflate FSD with 5!
Incorrect. Waymo and Cruise are operating L4 robotaxies. Robotaxies do not need to be nor do they imply L5.
 

Wol747

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
1,063
530
Tea Gardens
>>Level 4 vehicles can operate in self-driving mode. But until legislation and infrastructure evolves, they can only do so within a limited area (usually an urban environment where top speeds reach an average of 30mph). This is known as geofencing. As such, most Level 4 vehicles in existence are geared toward ridesharing. For example:
  • NAVYA, a French company, is already building and selling Level 4 shuttles and cabs in the U.S. that run fully on electric power and can reach a top speed of 55 mph.
  • Alphabet's Waymo recently unveiled a Level 4 self-driving taxi service in Arizona, where they had been testing driverless cars―without a safety driver in the seat―for more than a year and over 10 million miles.<<
My understanding is that the Waymo vehicles are quite constrained as to location and speed but I may be out of date.
Personally I would not consider FSD as being other than a control-less car (as a robotaxi) able to drive at normal speeds over any route that a human would be able to. I think several companies are near that, but that the last 1% is going to be insurmountable. That's not to say that our cars won't be able to navigate safely most of the time, just that we will have controls in front of us - which rather rules out using them as taxis.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,836
5,763
>>Level 4 vehicles can operate in self-driving mode. But until legislation and infrastructure evolves, they can only do so within a limited area (usually an urban environment where top speeds reach an average of 30mph). This is known as geofencing. As such, most Level 4 vehicles in existence are geared toward ridesharing. For example:
  • NAVYA, a French company, is already building and selling Level 4 shuttles and cabs in the U.S. that run fully on electric power and can reach a top speed of 55 mph.
  • Alphabet's Waymo recently unveiled a Level 4 self-driving taxi service in Arizona, where they had been testing driverless cars―without a safety driver in the seat―for more than a year and over 10 million miles.<<
My understanding is that the Waymo vehicles are quite constrained as to location and speed but I may be out of date.
Personally I would not consider FSD as being other than a control-less car (as a robotaxi) able to drive at normal speeds over any route that a human would be able to. I think several companies are near that, but that the last 1% is going to be insurmountable. That's not to say that our cars won't be able to navigate safely most of the time, just that we will have controls in front of us - which rather rules out using them as taxis.
Robotaxis do not need to be control-less, Waymo is a great example of one still with controls. As you point out yourself, the robotaxis today are L4.

I take it you are using the wrong definitions for L4 and L5, which likely was presented by the media (which does a terrible job of it). The existence of controls have to do with neither. The difference between L4 and L5 is L5 has no ODD limitations, meaning that it can drive on any public road that a human can drive. L4 instead can be limited (for example by geo fencing to a particular area). Both L4 and L5 is generally considered self driving, and the features Tesla promised on their order page for FSD back in 2016 (they've since updated and pared back what is promised) can be satisfied by a L4 car.

You can see more details here:
SAE MOBILUS

Here's the latest infographic about the various levels:
j3016graphic_2021.png

SAE Levels of Driving Automation™ Refined for Clarity and International Audience - SAE Levels of Driving Automation™ Refined for Clarity and International Audience
 

Wol747

Active Member
Aug 26, 2017
1,063
530
Tea Gardens
>>Robotaxis do not need to be control-less<<
I don't think it's nitpicking to say that the prospect of our cars robotaxiing WITH controls is .... interesting! And I do note in your clip from the SAE listing that level 4 will not operate unless all conditions are met.
Let's just wait and see.
 

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