Recieved tesla s yesterday no AP2

[flamingoezz]

No...but Audi uses model years and you know what features the new version will have before it hits the lot. Plus as mentioned before, they discount the year end models. Tesla does none of these things.

That's all I'm saying here. Shmudster has spoken.

Do you imagine that if you dropped 100k on an Audi or other luxury brand you could get a credit for buying g a car the day before the next year's model drops?

No, not happening.

 

[MXWing]

This is obviously a unique situation. I'm not suggesting Tesla take back or credit any AP1 owner who is now unhappy that they'll be missing out on AP2. We're talking about a few dozen people who took delivery this week, care about AP2 and have put zero miles on their car.

Here's a few problems with taking care of people who took delivery "this week".

1 - Will TSLA Shareholders absorb the losses for no good reason?
2 - It's not like it was one magic button that made the cutover from AP1 to AP2. It was decided MONTHS ago which cars would get AP2 Hardware or not. This decision was very likely Q2. This coincides with Tesla attempting to blow out as many AP1 cars as possible so the assembly line can be re-tooled for the new manufacturing process.
3 - So then why not 8 days. Why not 9 days? How far back do we go? At some point, the daddy in the house just has to put his foot down and make a decision.

If we were talking about an iphone that is already manufactured and sitting on a shelf, I could see your point -- but we are talking about a BUILT TO ORDER product in an industry where NOBODY is close to them. They wouldn't miss out on sales -- they would simply delay them -- and as a result they would have an opportunity for higher profit (AP2 and full autonomous at 8K vs AP1 at 3K) and have higher customer satisfaction.

Delay =
Cash flow issue.
Inventory management issues
Idle workers.
Overtime when they catch up.
Poor precedence.
.

I'm not in the automotive manfacturing industry but I assume there are many more issues.

 

[MXWing]

No...but Audi uses model years and you know what features the new version will have before it hits the lot. Plus as mentioned before, they discount the year end models. Tesla does none of these things.

That's all I'm saying here. Shmudster has spoken.

How much innovation does Audi on their cars? Forget hardware that incurs a higher COG. Let's just talk software. None.

You are in the basket of people who hate innovation
If Tesla would just stop innovating so fast, people would be happier.

 

[ttupper92618]

We're talking about a few dozen people who took delivery this week, care about AP2 and have put zero miles on their car.

I think part of what feeds into this meme is a failure on the part of those proposing discounts, etc. to appreciate scale - this is an example of that. Tesla delivers thousands of vehicles per week already - that's far greater than the "dozen" that you suggest.

Scale, and longer term feasibility, matters. Here's why: In a few years the number of cars Tesla produces annually will be closer to 10,000 a week.

It's very easy to argue that Tesla should compensate owners with credits, take back the cars, upgrade the cars, or any of the other suggestions bandied about when you don't understand scale, because the numbers seem small. But because of the failure to understand scale, the estimation of business cost in these proposals is off, often by a factor of 10 - 50 or more. One poster suggested that Tesla should spend a few million dollars to give every owner who purchased in the last month an 8K rebate. The problem is that the '$1 or 2 million' figure was off by 25 - 52 times.

Tesla is always going to introduce new technology. That is always going to upset recent buyers. What will change is the number of units - the scale - that these changes impact. Whatever Tesla does now at 80,000 cars a year needs to be scalable to when production is 500,000 cars annually. None of the proposals that have been made work at that scale, most don't work at the present scale.

Again, scale matters.

 

[MXWing]

I think part of what feeds into this meme is a failure on the part of those proposing discounts, etc. to appreciate scale - this is an example of that. Tesla delivers thousands of vehicles per week already - that's far greater than the "dozen" that you suggest.

Scale, and longer term feasibility, matters. Here's why: In a few years the number of cars Tesla produces annually will be closer to 10,000 a week.

It's very easy to argue that Tesla should compensate owners with credits, take back the cars, upgrade the cars, or any of the other suggestions bandied about when you don't understand scale, because the numbers seem small. But because of the failure to understand scale, the estimation of business cost in these proposals is off, often by a factor of 10 - 50 or more. One poster suggested that Tesla should spend a few million dollars to give every owner who purchased in the last month an 8K rebate. The problem is that the '$1 or 2 million' figure was off by 25 - 52 times.

Tesla is always going to introduce new technology. That is always going to upset recent buyers. What will change is the number of units - the scale - that these changes impact. Whatever Tesla does now at 80,000 cars a year needs to be scalable to when production is 500,000 cars annually. None of the proposals that have been made work at that scale, most don't work at the present scale.

Again, scale matters.

Tesla has sales and economists working for them that know more about how they work internally than we do. People here do not even understanding Econ 1A, let alone talk about the actual production process.

It amazes me how people who can buy a Tesla but don't qualify to work at McDonalds.

 

[Sohailhassan]

They DID give notice!
Musk: Tesla will do 'the obvious thing' for Autopilot on Model 3
Tesla's Elon Musk hints Model 3 will be fully autonomous | ZDNet
He also mentioned that Model S/X would get new features first.
Those articles are from June

He mentioned an event "maybe toward the end of the year"

While you're right, I would be kind of mad, but mad at myself for not listening.

sales calls every weeks , they won me that way, as the sales guy probably didnot know, and despite my probing i got fooled, that is what is bugging me.

 

[Sohailhassan]

Tesla has sales and economists working for them that know more about how they work internally than we do. People here do not even understanding Econ 1A, let alone talk about the actual production process.

It amazes me how people who can buy a Tesla but don't qualify to work at McDonalds.

I think part of what feeds into this meme is a failure on the part of those proposing discounts, etc. to appreciate scale - this is an example of that. Tesla delivers thousands of vehicles per week already - that's far greater than the "dozen" that you suggest.

Scale, and longer term feasibility, matters. Here's why: In a few years the number of cars Tesla produces annually will be closer to 10,000 a week.

It's very easy to argue that Tesla should compensate owners with credits, take back the cars, upgrade the cars, or any of the other suggestions bandied about when you don't understand scale, because the numbers seem small. But because of the failure to understand scale, the estimation of business cost in these proposals is off, often by a factor of 10 - 50 or more. One poster suggested that Tesla should spend a few million dollars to give every owner who purchased in the last month an 8K rebate. The problem is that the '$1 or 2 million' figure was off by 25 - 52 times.

Tesla is always going to introduce new technology. That is always going to upset recent buyers. What will change is the number of units - the scale - that these changes impact. Whatever Tesla does now at 80,000 cars a year needs to be scalable to when production is 500,000 cars annually. None of the proposals that have been made work at that scale, most don't work at the present scale.

Again, scale matters.

agree with you. just a phone call to those who ordered in the last month, or a better way of handling a tech annoucement would had worked. any way this is an unusual time of very fast paced world.

 

[myusername]

if Tesla had given even 3 months lead on a brand new set of features it would have killed a quarter of sales... instead they gave zero lead... have a handful of unhappy customers... and continuous deliveries through the quarter.

 

[mrtian97]

I agree, all about free market. People have choices of which car company they want to spend their money. Each car company has different business model, including Tesla. I just started considering Tesla because they coming up with Model 3 and they offer MS 60 at lower entry price point for MS. Learning more and more from this forum.

 

[mhan00]

Tesla has sales and economists working for them that know more about how they work internally than we do. People here do not even understanding Econ 1A, let alone talk about the actual production process.

It amazes me how people who can buy a Tesla but don't qualify to work at McDonalds.

No need to get insulting. It's just that this is something that is outside of their field of expertise. It's kind of like the Dunning Kruger effect: they don't know what they don't know so they're missing a lot of variables that make suggestions that seem logical on their face far more trouble or expensive than they're worth.

 

[Shumdit]

No need to get insulting. It's just that this is something that is outside of their field of expertise. It's kind of like the Dunning Kruger effect: they don't know what they don't know so they're missing a lot of variables that make suggestions that seem logical on their face far more trouble or expensive than they're worth.

But even when you explain it to them they still don't get it. It's like arguing with a toddler.

 

[Shumdit]

agree with you. just a phone call to those who ordered in the last month, or a better way of handling a tech annoucement would had worked. any way this is an unusual time of very fast paced world.

A phone call to tell you what? They did contact people whose cars are not yet in production or delivered so that seems correct. I think you are asking them to call you because you already took delivery. What are they supposed to call you to say?
"Hello, not sure if you have heard but we just came out with a new feature you did not order, did not pay for and will not get. Hope you are enjoying your new Tesla. Have a GREAT day!" Shoot me your #. I will be happy to make that call to you.

 

[Shumdit]

No...but Audi uses model years and you know what features the new version will have before it hits the lot. Plus as mentioned before, they discount the year end models. Tesla does none of these things.

That's all I'm saying here. Shmudster has spoken.

Happy to continue the discussion in hopes of educating you. Manufactuers besides Tesla do make mid year changes on a regular basis and do not retrofit the earlier models.

Volkswagen Makes Mid-Year Changes to Beetle, GLI

2016 Mazda CX-5 Updated Mid-Model Year - Kelley Blue Book

(I can give you more if you like-suffice it to say it's not a Tesla only thing)

Did you know the US is the only major market as far as I know that does not use the calendar year to determine the model year like Tesla?
It's also not uncommon at all for the new models to be in production before the public knows what's new on the next year's models or mid year changes and not every "old" car is discounted. Some cars are in enough demand to warrant full MSRP or higher from dealers even though they are about to be a "last year's model". Tesla did discount cars to help clear out the AP1.0 cars to some extent and to have (hopefully) a profitable quarter. I think, based on your comment that you would have no complaints in this current scenario if Tesla just started calling every car made with AP2.0 a 2017 model or waited until January to release AP2.0. Is that correct? You can't logically tell me it's OK for other manufacturers to decide to start calling cars a 2017 model in January of 2016 and introduce changes but Tesla does the logical thing of calling cars made in 2016 a 2016 model but then needs to wait until January to make any changes. Ball is in your court shrimp eater.

 

[Shumdit]

a manufacturer has plenty of power to offer a credit (heck, they offer $1000 off for referrals) or take a car back, regardless of what you may think. If part of reinventing the auto industry is treating customers who spend $100K+ like crap, you won't last long.

The referral fee is generating new sales, not a customer satisfaction/goodwill rebate and since Tesla does not really spend any money marketing/advertising or discounting cars on a normal basis this is a good way to generate new sales leads while maximizing shareholder value. Giving money back or buying back cars already sold is not at all the same thing and it sets a bad precedent for the next time they update something and some recent buyers decide they have been wronged so it's bad business. On the other end of the way things are done it's not uncommon for the "Per car sold" marketing/incentive cost to be $2-3k for other American manufacturers. This covers commercials/print advertising/rebates/dealer money etc. Just another example of the "old way" things are done and why Tesla could bring meaningful change if the lobbyists don't win out. If you think about it, if Mercedes decided to sell direct and not do marketing/advertising people could be saving $10,000 on model priced comaparable to a Tesla without Mercedes taking a hit on the bottom line.

 

[DSB87]

MXWING and Schumdit don't know what they're talking about. They are defending Tesla's poor business practice of putting short term profits ahead of having satisfied customers. This is classic short term thinking on Tesla's part, and it will come back to haunt them in the future. These are CUSTOM built products, not manufacturing for inventory going to some dealers lot. Tesla would have much more happy customers if the customers could make informed decisions about whether to order the current technology or wait for anticipated improvements expected in a few months or longer into the future.

Tesla has disappointing and angering thousands of customers over the past few years who missed out on the new changes instead of having a product roadmap laying out a timeline for major changes like nearly all other major companies do for their products. The customers who have been burned by Tesla won't become repeat customers and Tesla will lose out in the long term when their competitors catch up. Nearly every major automobile maker is hard at work on electric vehicles and many of the luxury brands will have worthy alternatives to Tesla's in a few years.

Flamingoezz, I sympathize with how you feel. I received my Tesla S 90D just two months ago with AP 1.0. I think it's completely unreasonable for Tesla to expect customers to scour through forums and read between the lines of articles and interviews with Elon to try to learn about important upcoming changes to their products. I'm extremely unhappy that I missed out on everything exciting that I will be hearing about AutoPilot 2.0 in the next few years by just two months. I would have been an extremely happy customer if Tesla had let me know about this major change that they were already gearing up for at the time they started building my car. I would have waited 2 - 3 months and would be ordering my Tesla now. Instead I wish I had never purchased a Tesla.

I will also be letting all my friends, coworkers and anyone who asks know about my experiences with Tesla is so they can make informed decisions of what to expect if they decide to buy a Tesla. This was my first Tesla and it will be my last.

 

[ttupper92618]

MXWING and Schumdit don't know what they're talking about. They are defending Tesla's poor business practice of putting short term profits ahead of having satisfied customers. This is classic short term thinking on Tesla's part, and it will come back to haunt them in the future. These are CUSTOM built products, not manufacturing for inventory going to some dealers lot. Tesla would have much more happy customers if the customers could make informed decisions about whether to order the current technology or wait for anticipated improvements expected in a few months or longer into the future.

Tesla has disappointing and angering thousands of customers over the past few years who missed out on the new changes instead of having a product roadmap laying out a timeline for major changes like nearly all other major companies do for their products. The customers who have been burned by Tesla won't become repeat customers and Tesla will lose out in the long term when their competitors catch up. Nearly every major automobile maker is hard at work on electric vehicles and many of the luxury brands will have worthy alternatives to Tesla's in a few years.

Flamingoezz, I sympathize with how you feel. I received my Tesla S 90D just two months ago with AP 1.0. I think it's completely unreasonable for Tesla to expect customers to scour through forums and read between the lines of articles and interviews with Elon to try to learn about important upcoming changes to their products. I'm extremely unhappy that I missed out on everything exciting that I will be hearing about AutoPilot 2.0 in the next few years by just two months. I would have been an extremely happy customer if Tesla had let me know about this major change that they were already gearing up for at the time they started building my car. I would have waited 2 - 3 months and would be ordering my Tesla now. Instead I wish I had never purchased a Tesla.

I will also be letting all my friends, coworkers and anyone who asks know about my experiences with Tesla is so they can make informed decisions of what to expect if they decide to buy a Tesla. This was my first Tesla and it will be my last.

In my opinion, your post demonstrates the extremely difficult nature of these demands. In your case, you expect that Tesla should have warned you at least two months before unveiling their new hardware. You are basically saying that they should have burned a quarter in sales and deliveries.

This, I think, highlights the capricious nature of many of these demands / expectations; they aren't based on logic or rationale - they are driven by self-interest. In your case, the warning period 'should' have been at least two months... because that's how much time *you* needed. Others will throw out figures like a day, a week, a month... while some will throw out still longer periods. The common denominator is that they are all based on the personal experience of the buyer, not on what Tesla needs to do to run a successful business.

Every car a consumer delays for a quarter is one less sale for Tesla in that quarter. It is a quarter in which Tesla's plans are made known to its competitors, giving them more time to develop and market their competing products. It's a lower stock price for the company, and a lessened capacity to raise more funds.

I'm sorry you are disappointed, and I feel bad for you. The best thing for Tesla to do, however, is nothing.

 

[MXWing]

MXWING and Schumdit don't know what they're talking about. They are defending Tesla's poor business practice of putting short term profits ahead of having satisfied customers. This is classic short term thinking on Tesla's part, and it will come back to haunt them in the future. These are CUSTOM built products, not manufacturing for inventory going to some dealers lot. Tesla would have much more happy customers if the customers could make informed decisions about whether to order the current technology or wait for anticipated improvements expected in a few months or longer into the future.

Tesla has disappointing and angering thousands of customers over the past few years who missed out on the new changes instead of having a product roadmap laying out a timeline for major changes like nearly all other major companies do for their products. The customers who have been burned by Tesla won't become repeat customers and Tesla will lose out in the long term when their competitors catch up. Nearly every major automobile maker is hard at work on electric vehicles and many of the luxury brands will have worthy alternatives to Tesla's in a few years.

Flamingoezz, I sympathize with how you feel. I received my Tesla S 90D just two months ago with AP 1.0. I think it's completely unreasonable for Tesla to expect customers to scour through forums and read between the lines of articles and interviews with Elon to try to learn about important upcoming changes to their products. I'm extremely unhappy that I missed out on everything exciting that I will be hearing about AutoPilot 2.0 in the next few years by just two months. I would have been an extremely happy customer if Tesla had let me know about this major change that they were already gearing up for at the time they started building my car. I would have waited 2 - 3 months and would be ordering my Tesla now. Instead I wish I had never purchased a Tesla.

I will also be letting all my friends, coworkers and anyone who asks know about my experiences with Tesla is so they can make informed decisions of what to expect if they decide to buy a Tesla. This was my first Tesla and it will be my last.

You *admit* you wouldn't of bought anything for 2-3 months. Do you think you are the only person who would make this decision? Most likely everyone would. So Tesla now has no cash flow, no productivity, no sales for 2-3 months. What company can withstand this?

Assuming they gave a 90 day window, which they will never ever will. Elon won't do it, the shareholders would revolt. So assuming they do this 90 window - what if YOU made an order on day 91. You would still be here yapping and crying about what a horrible company Tesla is.

If Tesla shut down tomorrow and your Tesla S90D was the best Tesla S ever made, it sounds like you would be a lot happier. Can you possibly be more self-centered?

Companies do not survive waiting on custom orders. They may have to do this at the beginning (and burning cash in the process), but the goal is to achieve consistent production lines.They need to keep moving inventory and producing cars.

Show me some companies that lay out their roadmap and we will see if its an apples to apples argument.

You didn't miss AP2 by two months. You missed it by 6 or more. The assembly line was already being reconfigured to build AP2. They just didn't tell you about it.

How much do you expect out of your worthless, outdated and obsolete Tesla S? I can help you move into a Bolt with cash on top so you don't have regret anymore.

Drive your car and count your blessings you can afford to be in a Tesla to begin with. A billion people have managed to survive without a FSDC car - I think you can too.

*As a disclaimer* I plan on being a major hypocrite and will reverse all of my opinions on this matter when I miss the cut off for 2nd row folding seats on the Model X. I will be raging all over the Internet and telling all my friends and families that Elon couldn't be bothered to take 30 seconds out of his day to call me and say "psshh.. you might wanna hold off on your order buddy. If you could do yourself a favor (and please dont tell anyone else).. make your reservation on 12/15 after 2:00PM PST.



Just kidding... I'm not a naive fool.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Flamingoezz, I sympathize with how you feel. I received my Tesla S 90D just two months ago with AP 1.0. I think it's completely unreasonable for Tesla to expect customers to scour through forums and read between the lines of articles and interviews with Elon to try to learn about important upcoming changes to their products. I'm extremely unhappy that I missed out on everything exciting that I will be hearing about AutoPilot 2.0 in the next few years by just two months. I would have been an extremely happy customer if Tesla had let me know about this major change that they were already gearing up for at the time they started building my car. I would have waited 2 - 3 months and would be ordering my Tesla now. Instead I wish I had never purchased a Tesla.

I will also be letting all my friends, coworkers and anyone who asks know about my experiences with Tesla is so they can make informed decisions of what to expect if they decide to buy a Tesla. This was my first Tesla and it will be my last.

Tesla has the highest owner satisfaction of any car company, however, you can't please everyone. Tesla will do fine if 90% would buy a Tesla again, rather than 95%.

It's unfortunate you got burned - but it's just not realistic for Tesla to pre-announce hardware changes. Osborning current sales would lead to a share price collapse and would likely lead to bankruptcy. I think Tesla would like to stay in business.

You can of course switch to a different car company. I think you can rest assured they won't ever launch anything new.

 

[JeffK]

sales calls every weeks , they won me that way, as the sales guy probably didnot know, and despite my probing i got fooled, that is what is bugging me.

In Michigan??

 

[DSB87]

I'm sorry you are disappointed, and I feel bad for you. The best thing for Tesla to do, however, is nothing.[/QUOTE]


Actually Tesla should have come up with a plan for all 25K+ Tesla S and X owners who purchased their vehicles within the past 30 - 90 days. They could have planned ahead and prewired the vehicles so they could offer AP 2.0 retrofits (for a fee) to recent owners. Tesla has been planning this update for most of 2016. They had already started to make some of the prewire changes needed to S and X vehicles for AP 2.0 as far back as 3 months before it was announced. Some planning is all it would have required.

This isn't a cosmetic change, a performance improvement, or a change in the capacity of the battery. Every one of the 25K+ customers who received AP 1.0 with their Tesla's in the last 90+ days are now blocked from getting all of the future software improvements for AutoPilot. Tesla won't be putting more than a minimal maintenance development effort into AP 1.0. The improvements coming from AP 2.0 will be the exciting highlights of every article, video and feature about Tesla for the next several years. All of the people who received AP 1.0 in the last 3 - 6 months should be disappointed that Tesla left them on their old technology.

By unloading the old inventory of AP 1.0 hardware on thousands of unsuspecting customers without an upgrade path, Tesla has put their short term profits ahead of customer satisfaction. With the AP 2.0 announcement, Tesla has lowered the resale value on all of these vehicles by nearly $10K each. If Tesla chose not to do a retrofit, they should at least be refunding the AP 1.0 cost back to recent owners they've left on the dead-end old technology.