Red Dragon using Falcon Heavy

[Grendal]

This is the part of that article that I found most interesting, quote:
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“One would be in situ resource utilization using the water in the soil at Mars to generate potable water and hydrogen and oxygen,” he said. Another experiment would be to create methane, which could be used as rocket fuel.
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It sounds like NASA is working with SpaceX and Elon on this since the SpaceX Mars rockets will be using a Methane/LOX mixture as fuel. It sounds like this experiment will find out if they can make more fuel on Mars. That would be incredibly useful to know.

 

[Grendal]

Lots of details of NASA's involvement in Red Dragon:

 

[Grendal]

I've read that NASA is contributing $32 million towards the Red Dragon mission besides all the mission support they will give that is mentioned in the collaboration PDF.

Somewhere else I read that the $32 million that NASA is contributing is 1/10 the estimated costs of the overall project. That means that SpaceX is paying almost $300 million for this to happen.

 

[miimura]

I didn't read the document you attached above, but I heard that the $32M was for NASA employee salaries that will be supporting Red Dragon. No money to SpaceX as I understand it.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Lots of details of NASA's involvement in Red Dragon:

The attached file doesn't seem to work.

 

[Grendal]

We recently found out that the Red Dragon mission has been pushed back to 2020. This is due to delays caused by the 9/1/16 anomaly which caused the flight manifest to slip forcing SpaceX to focus on paying customers. They have a lot of backlog on payloads to go through before they can afford to launch this. Too bad, but not unexpected.

 

[Grendal]

It's been quite a while and RD using FH has really been dropped by SpaceX. The Angry Astronaut seems to make the case for bringing the idea back.

 

[ecarfan]

I know you are just linking to that video and not endorsing it. I had not heard of “The Angry Astronaut”. I tried to find information about his background and couldn’t find anything. After watching the video I am not impressed with his analysis which seems sophomoric.

He believes that the true physics simulation of a Starship landing on Mars that Elon showed at an IAC meeting several years ago is essentially impossible. Why he thinks that is not clear but he seems to believe the terminal velocity of the vehicle will be far too high and it will destroy itself on touchdown. But he offers no data to support his conclusion, he just uses inflammatory adjectives to make his case.

If one is going to dispute the calculations of actual rocket scientists, then one should either possess similar qualification or seek out support for ones position from other rocket scientists and present their opinions instead of just making stuff up.

Then he concludes that if a Starship does manage to land intact it will probably fall over because the Martian surface is not stable enough to evenly support the Starship landing legs. He believes this because…no data is provided to support his position. Again.

He comes to this conclusion without knowing anything about what the Starship landing legs will look like or what their leveling capabilities will be.

So he proposes that SpaceX put a Red Dragon capsule on Mars, not with humans but with automated equipment that will “fuse regolith“ to provide a stable landing surface. But that will take large amounts of energy to perform that task for an approximately 1600 square meter landing zone (40x40m, which is a pretty small target to hit). Where is that energy going to come from? Will Red Dragon contain a nuclear reactor?

I think I have spent enough time on this guy…

 

[Electroman]

Is he angry all the time?

When Tim Dodd and this guy join hands, they will be angry everyday. It will be one angry fest day after day.

 

[Grendal]

I know you are just linking to that video and not endorsing it. I had not heard of “The Angry Astronaut”. I tried to find information about his background and couldn’t find anything. After watching the video I am not impressed with his analysis which seems sophomoric.

He believes that the true physics simulation of a Starship landing on Mars that Elon showed at an IAC meeting several years ago is essentially impossible. Why he thinks that is not clear but he seems to believe the terminal velocity of the vehicle will be far too high and it will destroy itself on touchdown. But he offers no data to support his conclusion, he just uses inflammatory adjectives to make his case.

If one is going to dispute the calculations of actual rocket scientists, then one should either possess similar qualification or seek out support for ones position from other rocket scientists and present their opinions instead of just making stuff up.

Then he concludes that if a Starship does manage to land intact it will probably fall over because the Martian surface is not stable enough to evenly support the Starship landing legs. He believes this because…no data is provided to support his position. Again.

He comes to this conclusion without knowing anything about what the Starship landing legs will look like or what their leveling capabilities will be.

So he proposes that SpaceX put a Red Dragon capsule on Mars, not with humans but with automated equipment that will “fuse regolith“ to provide a stable landing surface. But that will take large amounts of energy to perform that task for an approximately 1600 square meter landing zone (40x40m, which is a pretty small target to hit). Where is that energy going to come from? Will Red Dragon contain a nuclear reactor?

I think I have spent enough time on this guy…

I have seen a number of videos from this guy. Most of them are complaining about delays with SLS, Artemis, BO, and the BE-4. He's pro-space in general and my impression here is that he's making a case for SpaceX getting something to Mars. I'd guess he's thinking more along the lines of Elon's old greenhouse on Mars idea. More of a promotional move to get people inspired about going to Mars while development of Starship and Super Heavy continues.

 

[ecarfan]

He's pro-space in general and my impression here is that he's making a case for SpaceX getting something to Mars. I'd guess he's thinking more along the lines of Elon's old greenhouse on Mars idea. More of a promotional move to get people inspired about going to Mars while development of Starship and Super Heavy continues.

Did we watch the same video? What I heard in the video you linked to was a tirade about how it’s not possible to land Starship on Mars the way Elon showed in one of his IAC presentations and even if it did land without exploding the Martian regolith is not solid enough to support and it will tip over. And the video specifically discusses how a Red Dragon could carry equipment to Mars that could “fuse regolith” to provide a suitably firm landing pad.

I just did not interpret that video the same way you did.

 

[Grendal]

Did we watch the same video? What I heard in the video you linked to was a tirade about how it’s not possible to land Starship on Mars the way Elon showed in one of his IAC presentations and even if it did land without exploding the Martian regolith is not solid enough to support and it will tip over. And the video specifically discusses how a Red Dragon could carry equipment to Mars that could “fuse regolith” to provide a suitably firm landing pad.

I just did not interpret that video the same way you did.

Well, if you're going to land there anyway then making sure the surface is solid enough is something that can be done. I suppose the point is that SpaceX has the tested equipment to get there. Since they have it then let the exploration begin... It's all very speculative but SpaceX does have the capabilities to send a capsule to Mars if they decide to do it.

 

[ecarfan]

It's all very speculative but SpaceX does have the capabilities to send a capsule to Mars if they decide to do it.

True…but what would such an FH/Red Dragon mission accomplish that would be of significance and that would justify the well over $130 million cost (my guess) to SpaceX? For that price the goal needs to be more than just some good publicity.

 

[Grendal]

True…but what would such an FH/Red Dragon mission accomplish that would be of significance and that would justify the well over $130 million cost (my guess) to SpaceX? For that price the goal needs to be more than just some good publicity.

That's why I mentioned the old greenhouse concept. That was nothing but good publicity. Realistically, Elon and SpaceX is focused on Starship and Super Heavy. So it's extremely unlikely but fun to speculate on.