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Red Hands of Shame

Discussion in 'Model S' started by MDMGSO47, Sep 26, 2016.

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  1. MDMGSO47

    MDMGSO47 Member

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    So you can put the top of one thigh under the steering wheel to keep the wheel from turning and you are good?
     
  2. GoTslaGo

    GoTslaGo Learning Member

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    I recall reading a post somewhere, that this might work!
     
    • Disagree x 2
  3. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    That's actually MORE likely to work than using your hands.

    If I use my hands one of 2 things happens: 1) It doesn't detect my hands because I'm either gripping the wheel lightly, or am making the same corrections the car is to stay in the lane, or 2) I grip the wheel firmly AND steer against the autosteer and it disengages autosteer, and usually swerves out of the centre of the lane.

    1) will cause me to lose the ability to use autosteer after the nags put me in the penalty box
    2) is dangerous, and will cause me to lose the ability to use autosteer after I disengage it trying to satisfy the nag

    I chose option 3) don't add nags to a system that worked perfectly well before them, and which I own so Tesla has no right to remove features from.
     
  4. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    So what is Tesla supposed to do if the NHTSA tells them they have to implement more controls or disable it? I know the NHTSA has no jurisdiction in your country but they do here and Tesla has to comply. Elon's already stated that he believes they are okay with the new AP so he's obviously working with them.
     
  5. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

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    What I find most alarming is how different our experiences are with the torque sensor.

    I wouldn't imagine it would be all that different from one car to another, but we're getting wildly different experiences.

    With 8.0 so far I haven't had any issues with nags. I'll know more tonight after I travel 200 miles with it, but in the 50 miles with it so far it's nagged me zero times. I don't hold it particularly tight, nor do I use two hands. It's pretty much just a few fingers at most.
     
  6. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    You keep claiming that the NHTSA has SECRETLY ordered Tesla to disable things on peoples cars. Either provide the statement from the NHTSA, or agree that Tesla is doing this of their own accord.

    I would also like you to show precedent of a single recall the NHTSA has ever done that forced the owners to have the recall done against their will. There has never been one in the entire history of automotive transport. They order the manufacturer to provide a recall (in a very public way, and in all the media) and then it's up to the owner of the vehicle as to if they want to comply.

    You're stating as fact that the NHTSA has done ALL of the following, none of which they have ever done before in their history:
    - ordered a recall without telling anybody other than the manufacturer
    - made it mandatory that all owners comply
    - forced the manufacturer to comply worldwide and not just in the USA

    I find it much more reasonable to believe that Tesla has chosen to do this of their own free will (because their lawyers regret their earlier actions in releasing 7.0 with few nags), than believe in this absurd government conspiracy theory you keep bringing up over and over again.
     
    • Like x 4
  7. uberanalyst

    uberanalyst Member

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    If NHTSA works like many other US federal agencies, they can't just arbitrarily add a new regulatory requirement without first publishing it in the Federal Register for public comment as a Notice of Proposed RuleMaking (NPRM). Then if there are objections the department or agency goes through a formal process to justify the new rule. This gives citizens the ability to seek congressional intervention and oversight of the proposed rule. For example, this happens routinely with the FAA when they want to force an Airworthiness Directive (which is mandatory for manufacturers and aircraft owners) or change any of the Federal Aviation Regulations. See: Rulemaking Process

    In the end, NHTSA could force Tesla to implement controls, but it would need to be via a public process where we'd all have a chance to affect its outcome.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. RogerHScott

    RogerHScott Active Member

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    People, people. You're taking a very simplistic view of how these interactions work. For every policy that's formally mandated
    there are a dozen that are informally agreed on on a you-don't-want-us-to-make-you-do-this-oh-no-we-certainly-don't-please-
    allow-us-to-"voluntarily"-do-something basis. There would typically be no public record of such "deals", which suits both parties.
    So when people suggest that a change was made "for" NHTSA I'm pretty sure they mean "to head off future potential problems
    with NHTSA".
     
    • Like x 2
  9. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    @green1 I don't think anyone said that the NHTSA ordered Tesla to do anything, but here is a quote from the V8 Q&A session with Elon: "We have done most of these changes with NHTSA and I don’t want to speak for them but they appear to be pretty happy with the changes and the reactions from them is quite positive."

    So it sounds like the NHTSA has pushed them to making some of the changes. Maybe if Tesla didn't do them voluntarily the NHTSA would have been more forceful.
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  10. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    So you're saying that Tesla did this of their own accord, but that the NHTSA happens to like it.
    That's fine, they can do that. What they can't do is force me to accept their changes, nor can they avoid their responsibilities under the warranty or service agreement as a result of my refusal to accept those changes.
     
  11. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    Only because you live in a country not regulated by the NHTSA. But it's just a question of time before other countries do the same thing. Your resistance is futile.
     
    • Funny x 1
  12. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    For that post to be even remotely true, you'd have to claim that the NHTSA is doing both of the following, neither of which they have ever done in the entire history of the organization:
    1) ordered an official recall, without notifying anyone other than the manufacturer
    2) made it mandatory for all owners to comply

    Otherwise it is still Tesla voluntarily doing something which does not affect the owner's rights or responsibilities at all, nor does it affect Tesla's legal obligations under their warranty and service contracts.
     
  13. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    #33 msnow, Sep 28, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
    You should scroll up. At least three of us have told you how this could work. We also don't have the final report from the NHTSA but the fact that Tesla is working with them and getting buy-in on the AP controls should tell you that these controls are part of the agreed upon solution. The next step would be complying with it in the U.S. I know you think this is all mumbo jumbo but this is a regulated industry and Tesla has no choice. Your "99.9% guarantee" that Elon and his friends would risk everything to be able to wave their hands in the air and do emails while driving makes zero sense.
     
  14. u00mem9

    u00mem9 Member

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    But then wouldn't we need to trick the customers into voluntary compliance by some method? Like a major rev number? Or maybe a new media player...nevermind, there wouldn't be time to get something like that working properly...:D
     
    • Funny x 1
  15. msnow

    msnow Active Member

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    You're right and they have the ability to push updates silently.
     
  16. int32_t

    int32_t Tesla Spotter

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    I'm wading into the deep end here, but we both know Tesla knows people are idiots and can't be trusted with a car that mostly drives itself on a highway, nor can they read and follow clear directions on the dash. (Ever optimistic, Tesla hoped this wasn't the case but was quickly proven wrong.) Tesla isn't going to screen every owner and give them a package designed for drivers who are going to pay attention and a different package for drivers who are going to be cleaning their dashes and texting all the time. Nor are they going to put up with people constantly crashing their car and saying, "Oh, Autopilot!" all the time. Left alone, the fatality rate will quickly climb and Tesla's release-first-ask-questions-later approach will be thoroughly beaten until it's long past dead. While they add nags (which it sounds like are unobtrusive as long as you are alert and keeping a hand lightly on the wheel and not trying to correct the car's course yourself) they have also much improved Autopilot's abilities. I'd say there is a net gain here, not a net loss of features. My humble opinion, certainly.
     
    • Like x 2
  17. AvengerBB

    AvengerBB Member

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    Taking a step back I do find it humorous how resistant some people are to changes Tesla is making FOR THEIR SAFETY. Tesla, along with all other drivers are the road that you could be endangering, would like you to keep your hands on the wheel, and they are trying new techniques to make it happen. If it's not working correctly on initial release and is intrusive to how the system was designed, I'm sure they will work to fix.
     
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  18. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

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    The NHTSA tends to work WITH manufactures more than it ORDERS them to do something. They give the manufacture a chance to comply with what they "recommend" without OFFICIALLY ordering them to do anything.

    It also wasn't just the NHTSA, but also other governing bodies. Mostly importantly it was the media perception.

    US corporations HATE regulation, and tend to bend over backwards to avoid it.

    In the US you can't even watch a Viagra commercial without part of the ad being dedicated to saying that it won't prevent STD's. Like how in the world would I even get it in my mind that it would?
     
  19. green1

    green1 Active Member

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    #39 green1, Sep 28, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
    If you want the added nags, feel free to install the downgrade. There is nothing stopping you from doing so.
    I'm just pointing out that I don't have to. And that Tesla has no legal ability to force me to do so. They are free to change the way things work for new owners, but they have no legal ability to make ANY changes whatsoever to someone else's property without that person's express consent. In fact that is almost guaranteed to be the whole reason why you have to accept software updates manually. They have the ability to push them automatically, but their lawyers probably didn't want to deal with the legal fallout of that one, this way they can show you consented.

    There has never, in the entire history of automotive transport, been even a single time when the government has forced owners to comply with an official recall, they certainly won't be forcing it for something that they won't even go on record as having required.

    Enjoy your nags. It's your choice.
     
    • Like x 1
  20. David_Cary

    David_Cary Member

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    While it hasn't quite been forced, the VW diesel recall will be. Yes it is a federal recall and the states will force it to be done. But hey - that has never happened in the history of automotive transport.

    Lots of things have never happened before until they do. You have been coerced pretty hard to change software versions - Right?

    I'm always interested when someone's location fits with things they write - it is the internet of course. Usually it is someone from CA telling us East Coasters to slow down and smell the roses. But here it is a Canuck informing US citizens that the government won't ever force us to do anything. Whenever this issue comes up, remember our history. We stopped the Brits and you went along. :). It doesn't really matter that most of our families came here long after that. We will always distrust government in ways that Europe (and Europe-like NA country) will never understand.

    (But I appreciate you probably don't trust government either)
     

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