Reduced braking after car wash

[selfbp]

I do feel for you. Sorry for coming across as harsh. @selfbp is helping me with my attitude but I do have a lot of anx from my childhood that I like to take out on people here so he has his job cut out for him and I'm not sure he's up for the task given that he's so thin skinned...

Woah easy killer. Just messing around ​

 

[plongley]

Question does my 2013 85 have ABS brakes?

 

[Dale Adams]

I have all-seasons, save the lecture please.
I just having trouble getting over the fact that I was barely moving and the there was no slowing the car at all. I guess it was conditions.

I ran into a condition once where there was freezing rain and my car was stopped at a light. The car started sliding sideways from a dead stop due to the slope of the crown of the road. Sometimes there really is nothing you can do.

 

[JPUConn]

Question does my 2013 85 have ABS brakes?

Yes

 

[N..8]

I would say call your SC and asked them if you had a speed indication prior to hitting the truck. If they show you have a speed then that would add to your theory. If the speed showed Zero then the wheels were locked up and sliding. Also why people think you were sliding is because you lost control of your steering and were unable to avoid both the truck and car which would mean you were sliding on Ice.

 

[mongo]

I have all-seasons, save the lecture please.
I just having trouble getting over the fact that I was barely moving and the there was no slowing the car at all. I guess it was conditions.

If you go from rolling to a four wheel lock from at low speed, ABS may ignore it. I had a similar thing happen in my non-Tesla truck. Was slowly going down my sloped driveway. Hit the brakes. ABS kicked on for a moment, then decided everything was fine because all the wheel sensors agreed and previous speeds were low. Problem was, I was still moving 3ish MPH on four locked tires. (Makes steering really ineffective). Fortunately, sliding friction was enough to stop.

 

[BlueRocket]

@plongley I don't know if you noticed but did you have a green regen showing when you were sliding downhill with your foot firmly on the brake pedal? If so, that would indicate you're wheels were moving. If ABS was active you likely would have felt the brakes pulsing. While sliding on ice seems the most plausible explanation, I don't see any evidence in this thread one way or the other.

Edit: just reread @N..8 reply and I guess if steering was unavailable that indicates ice... I guess there is evidence in that regard

 

[jbcarioca]

This thread describes the perils of ice. I recall many years ago in North London (Hampstead) and sliding from the snowy icy road down the hill where I lived into the busy road below. When I did a similar stupid thing another time I collided with a friends car at low sped and damaged both. I was too panicked, both times, to release the brakes and regain control. I was lucky and hit nobody. Later, during the decades when I lived in snowy places (Michigan, New York and Ontario) I always had good snow tires. Driving without them renders ABS useless because if all the wheels stop rotating ABS thinks the car is stopped. I resolved never again to do such things, the consequences could easily be very serious.

Living in Vancouver or other places where such conditions are rare does not alter the need for winter tires because the surrounding area is prone to cold and wet conditions.

IMHO this obviously had nothing to do with Tesla vs any other car. Hakkas, in particular, are excellent in those conditions and serve pretty well as all weather tires too.

 

[Az_Rael]

Question does my 2013 85 have ABS brakes?

When did you last have your brakes serviced? It could very well have been conditions, but I know my 2013 had condensation in the system or something, because over time the brakes would get mushy. I had to get mine serviced per the 25k mile service interval to keep them feeling OK. Mine would also have a rock hard brake pedal on startup hinting at a small vacuum leak of some sort as well. If I had the car longer, I would have had Tesla do more troubleshooting, but I didn’t get the chance before the car was in a non-brake-related accident.

So, it may be worth it to have Tesla check them out, if nothing else for peace of mind that the system is in good working order.

 

[mongo]

Not the exact video I was thinking of, but good views of locked wheels.

Ah.. here it is,

 

[scaesare]

Ahh, very sorry to hear this @plongley .

The issue of diminished braking performance in specific wet/humid conditions with certain cars is real. I've experienced it myself, reported it to my service center, and they acknowledged it as an issue and Tesla had updated parts to address it. I discussed my experience in the Braking in rain thread, where others discussed theirs as well.

That having been said, a couple things perhaps useful:

1) My belief, after talking to service folks, noting the replaced parts, inspecting the brakes under specific conditions, and talking to others, is that the braking issue has to do with dust/scale buildup on the rotors that can quickly oxidize in wet/humid conditions. Given the amount of regen braking often done, the friction brakes may not have sufficient opportunity to scour the disk surfaces. The reformulated brake pads Tesla now supplies seems to reduce that. They also installed splash guards behind the rotors to help prevent road-spray from getting at them from the back side.

2) While I've experienced the issue in wet conditions such as rain or after a car wash, I can't say that I've ever had it in a cold/snow/slush environment. On slick roads I've always had enough braking that the tire traction was the limiting factor. This was evident by the antilock brakes and/or the skid control systems activating. I'm almost of the opinion that very cold weather would likely lessen the chance of this being an issue... as it's not likely there's as much free liquid water to oxidize things as quickly (very cold conditions are often very dry conditions).

3) My car is an early '13. I had this work done within the first year. I've rarely, if ever, had the issue happen since. I'd suspect that if your car is much newer than that, you would already have the updated parts.


Now I suppose it's possible that you had ice buildup on the rotors. I've personally not ever experienced that on the disk-brake vehicles I've owned, at least that I know of. I don't know how likely that is, or how that would manifest itself.

Did you feel the ABS kicking in while you were braking?

 

[plongley]

Thanks for all the input, that's why I came here.
I definitely had regeneration appearing, wasn't much because car was very cold.
I asked about ABS as in an ICE you definitely feel it, I didn't have that feeling last night.
I was able to control the car, just not the speed, hitting the parked cars was nesicary to avoid a head on, I had to drive like it was a slalom course trying to avoid the cars, it was very tight.

 

[plongley]

Thanks for all the input, that's why I came here.
I definitely had regeneration appearing, wasn't much because car was very cold.
I asked about ABS as in an ICE you definitely feel it, I didn't have that feeling last night.
I was able to control the car, just not the speed, hitting the parked cars was nesicary to avoid a head on, I had to drive like it was a slalom course trying to avoid the cars, it was very tight.

My car is a Dec 2013 build, that I just purchased last December through the CPO program.

 

[mrElbe]

As soon as I leave my drive way, I always do a brake check. Same after leaving a car wash. This procedure will clean any moisture from the pads or discs.

 

[brkaus]

I've experienced the ABS not doing anything on ice problem mentioned above in my 4x4 truck. Truck simply thought it was stopped. The same truck once slid off the road while already stopped at a stop light. The engine vibration + the very icy road caused it to just go right off the side due to the crown of the road. Of course, I had all season tires.

With that said, I'm not sure how to ever truly know what happened in your situation. If the brake pedal didn't just go to the floor, it was likely stopping the car due to the mechanical connection, except if there was ice on the rotors, and I would think that would be unlikely to hit all 4 wheels.

Sorry about the wreck, glad no one was hurt.

 

[Naonak]

I have experienced lack of braking (Pull depress of the pedal, but tires still moving) after the rotors have been wet. It is very scary... so along with OPs experience, I have definitely experienced it in microdoses... I don't know if the car would keep going, as I usually automatically pump the brakes, which lets the water off the top of the pads and lets the pads bite after a couple pumps. I can easily imagine a light sheen of water staying on the pads if you maintain a full depression without any pumping...

So I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss OPs experience as being purely ice. If I can remember to test this out next time I have water available, I may intentionally try to duplicate this and see if not pumping results in brake failure for an extended period of time.

FWIW, I have experienced similar things in other cars, so I have not thought it unusual in my Teslas, however, it's been more pronounced and I've attributed it to the weight of the vehicle and inertia.

 

[brkaus]

FWIW, I have experienced similar things in other cars, so I have not thought it unusual in my Teslas, however, it's been more pronounced and I've attributed it to the weight of the vehicle and inertia.

This is a good point. When the S has traction problems, if feels a lot more like my Ram 2500 than my old BMW 330. But when driving in good road conditions it certainly feels much more nimble due to the power delivery of the electric motors.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I see the OP and others are still trying to pump the brakes. You shouldn't pump ABS brakes. You should push the brake pedal as firmly as possible and let the ABS do its job. The pulsing you feel when applying the brakes means the ABS is doing its job. ABS is able to cycle the brakes much faster than you can with your foot, with some systems able to cycle the brakes 16 times per second.

 

[mongo]

I see the OP and others are still trying to pump the brakes. You shouldn't pump ABS brakes. You should push the brake pedal as firmly as possible and let the ABS do its job.

Usually, yes. There may be an edge case where there is an issue with the physical interface between the pad and rotor, then you might need to let up to clear that. If you are pressing, not stopping, and the pedal is not pulsing, it may be time to try something else.

 

[Max*]

I've been here for 4 years and there's no reports of no brakes after washing vehicles.

Correct, but what about reduced braking?

Each time I wash the car, as I'm driving out of the car wash and start to brake, the car seems to continue to fly down the road. I need to brake HARD to get it to stop. After 1-2 hard brakes, the brakes go back to normal.

Not saying it's a Tesla defect at all. Never had it this bad in my old car, using the same carwash, but the Tesla weighs a lot more. The brakes work, but due to being wet, they require more force. I never mentioned it, as it's not a big deal.