This has been interesting to read, and having lived and driven cars for a dozen years in Norway, Latvia, Finland,and other cold climates, I agree with the diagnosis -- sliding on ice. But what I wonder is why did not the ABS feature cause the usual braking action to counter the slide? My Tesla does have ABS, right?
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At some point the wheels are supposed to stop turning. At very low speeds, ABS can't necessary tell the difference between lock up and a stopped vehicle.
When you first set off in conditions like this your brakes can be none functioning. I live in Norway and this has happend to me once this winter on my 2013 S. It has the upgraded brakes and the software is supposed to every so often warm the brakes just a little. Alas it dosent help on startup.
Its not sliding on tyres, Its the brakes not functioning due to icing on brake discs. No matter how much I pressed. Had to do several 100% brake push to clear them.
So everyone, check your brakes before you roll more than 1m if icy conditions. Its the start of the journey that`s the problem.
Its not sliding on tyres, Its the brakes not functioning due to icing on brake discs. No matter how much I pressed. Had to do several 100% brake push to clear them.
So everyone, check your brakes before you roll more than 1m if icy conditions. Its the start of the journey that`s the problem.
Decibelle
Member
further up the thread the OP mentions he was steering the car like on a slalom course. I grew up in Sweden and anytime all 4 wheels were sliding, there was no way I could have steered the vehicle in any direction. I'm leaning towards the break failure.
ElectricTundra
P85D AP1
A bit of cold spell when temps are otherwise getting above freezing is simply not that much of a problem, at least in places like Minnesota. The risk is when temps stay well below freezing continually. This is when ice can remain on roadways for long periods and when the road surface is cold enough for black ice to form.
Many winter tyres also don't perform as well in warmer wet weather so fitting them on when temps are above freezing could actually increase your risk.
Given how quickly they wear down in warmer weather (they wear quickly below freezing and extremely quickly above freezing), if we were to put winter tyres on for 50°F temps then we'd have to buy new winter tyres every year (or more often than that). Some tyre manufacturers suggest them as soon as high temps are consistently below 40°F, but between 30°F and 40°F it's probably about an even trade-off between winter and summer tyres from a safety standpoint (but fitting winters on sooner wears them out faster requiring more purchases of them).
Pretty spot on there. I live in Norway, I change to winter tires mid/late October (avg. monthly temp. 5 C) and back to summer tires early April (avg. monthly temp. 4 C). I use real Nordic winter tires which are great on snow and ice, but inferior on German autobahn compared to to "continental" winter tires like SottoZero.
Do not care about costs for tires, one crash and you loose!
Canuck
Well-Known Member
Not true. You only put them on for the season so your talk about wear makes no sense to me. You really think they would only last one season? I drive a lot and where I live the average winter temperature is well above freezing. We rarely dip below zero but when we do, and get snow and ice (and today is one of those days -- this week is in fact), it's either have proper winter tires or stay off the roads, at least in my view. That doesn't happen, of course, because people like you think winter tires are not worth it. I strongly disagree. I get at least three seasons out of my winter tires and could probably get more but given the lack of a spare, and I like a lot of tread, I usually replace them after three years (seasons). It's just nonsense to think you only get one season and for that reason winter tires are not worth it. Fine if you stay off the roads when there is ice and snow -- like our Leaf which is grounded now -- but you put everyone's life at risk driving in snow and ice with all-season tires.
That's nonsense too. Good quality winter tires perform well on dry and wet roads, often better than all-season in testing because they stick, and channel water, better. But you do pay for that a bit in ride quality.
Same here -- except for the autobahn part.
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Some good questions here regarding winter tires. As for when to switch, the performance of winter tires exceeds that of 3 season tires (aka "All-Season") at +7 C (45 F). Keep in mind that maybe the daily high might be +12 C, but if when you're driving to work in the morning it's -1 C and the drive home after work is +3 C, then you should already be in your winter tires.
I'm a firm believer in the benefits of winter tires. I'm always astounded at how poor all-season tires work in winter whenever I rent a vehicle that has all-season tires on. I know that Quebec has made winter tires mandatory and while I don't believe in over-regulation, I do wish that drivers who don't switch to winter tires were somehow more accountable for their negligence. Also car rental agencies. Why should my family and I be put at risk by others? Perhaps the insurance industry could somehow step up and put the onus on drivers/fleet operators/rental agencies to ensure they have proper tires on. An idea would be to increase the deductible say 10x if at fault in an accident where lack of traction was a primary factor and most reasonable people would have had winter tires on in those circumstances/at that time of year (i.e. not the freak snowstorms that we sometimes get here in July!).
For some good information on winter tires, I'll refer you to a good Canadian tire shop's list of articles on the topic (yes, I realize their potential bias).
Last spring I turned in my VW TDI for their cash buyout. I bought a used 2012 Volt to tie me over until my Model 3 comes available, then the Volt will become the car for my kids to learn to drive on (they're 12 & 15 at the moment). When I bought the Volt, the previous owner had winter tires on rims that he included in the sale. I duly swapped wheels in late Fall. Our first snowfall was an overnight freezing rain that turned to snow. The roads were dreadful. As I was carefully coming to a stop for a red light (down to <5 kph), the car suddenly slid sideways out of my lane (simply from the drainage gradient), across the adjacent lane and curbed itself hard! The road was that slippery. When I finally made it safely to the office, I looked at the tires and realized that the "winter" tires were actually Michelin MXM4 summer tires! Ugh! Bought new winters the next day...
I'm a firm believer in the benefits of winter tires. I'm always astounded at how poor all-season tires work in winter whenever I rent a vehicle that has all-season tires on. I know that Quebec has made winter tires mandatory and while I don't believe in over-regulation, I do wish that drivers who don't switch to winter tires were somehow more accountable for their negligence. Also car rental agencies. Why should my family and I be put at risk by others? Perhaps the insurance industry could somehow step up and put the onus on drivers/fleet operators/rental agencies to ensure they have proper tires on. An idea would be to increase the deductible say 10x if at fault in an accident where lack of traction was a primary factor and most reasonable people would have had winter tires on in those circumstances/at that time of year (i.e. not the freak snowstorms that we sometimes get here in July!).
For some good information on winter tires, I'll refer you to a good Canadian tire shop's list of articles on the topic (yes, I realize their potential bias).
Last spring I turned in my VW TDI for their cash buyout. I bought a used 2012 Volt to tie me over until my Model 3 comes available, then the Volt will become the car for my kids to learn to drive on (they're 12 & 15 at the moment). When I bought the Volt, the previous owner had winter tires on rims that he included in the sale. I duly swapped wheels in late Fall. Our first snowfall was an overnight freezing rain that turned to snow. The roads were dreadful. As I was carefully coming to a stop for a red light (down to <5 kph), the car suddenly slid sideways out of my lane (simply from the drainage gradient), across the adjacent lane and curbed itself hard! The road was that slippery. When I finally made it safely to the office, I looked at the tires and realized that the "winter" tires were actually Michelin MXM4 summer tires! Ugh! Bought new winters the next day...
It is easy to regulate this. Norwegian laws state poorly translated that "a vehicle must not be used without ensuring adequate grip with regards to road conditions, if necessary with the use of winter tires with or without studs, chains or similar."
I would guess you could be fined or jailed with all weather's on snow here, depending on havoc created.
I would guess you could be fined or jailed with all weather's on snow here, depending on havoc created.
Hard to say how much was due to the conditions of the road, and how much was due to something with the brakes.
When I experienced this it was clearly due to to snow/ice, but luckily I didn't hit anything. I wanted to slow down for a speed bump below the hill, and the brakes weren't doing anything.
But, unlike the OP I hadn't just started off. Instead I was coming back from the grocery store so I knew my brakes worked.
When I experienced this it was clearly due to to snow/ice, but luckily I didn't hit anything. I wanted to slow down for a speed bump below the hill, and the brakes weren't doing anything.
But, unlike the OP I hadn't just started off. Instead I was coming back from the grocery store so I knew my brakes worked.
DJ 240V
Member
Surely it’s not the wash ? What about when it rains ? Did tesla diagnose the problem ?
There are (at least) 2 ways of brake failure.
1) ice/water/oil on the discs or pads, meaning you have to push harder on the pedal for same brake effect. Happens also on my bikes after rain etc.
2) condensation and freezing in the brake fluid reservoir, so that you push the pedal to the floor without any brake effect. Some norwegians have reported this, but cause is a speculation.
1) ice/water/oil on the discs or pads, meaning you have to push harder on the pedal for same brake effect. Happens also on my bikes after rain etc.
2) condensation and freezing in the brake fluid reservoir, so that you push the pedal to the floor without any brake effect. Some norwegians have reported this, but cause is a speculation.
RedOctober
Member
From reading all the posts I’m not sure how many have experience in the field of automotive repairs and brake systems but some of the comments are off base. Would be interesting to know if the OP’s vehicle was in the garage before he left the house. In all my experience of driving if some of the longest and worst winters in Canada or friends and family have never experienced brake failure do to ice. Inexperienced drivers and those with no mechanical knowledge (from what I’ve read from the OP comments appears to be one of them and that’s not a put down, he can hqve vast knowledge and skills in others areas) tend to try and come up with an explanation for something happening they never experienced before. I, like many others have experienced uncontrollable slidding but with experience know what happened. There is no ice in the brake lines. The braking system is a closed system but moisture can build over time in the right conditions that requires a brake fluid flush. Let’s stop trying to make this into something other than poor road conditions.
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ElectricTundra
P85D AP1
I have not had reduced braking after a car wash done in my underground parkade by me but I do get the brakes sticking if I have left the car overnight without moving it. I have had to really step on it to get the brakes to release.
I spoke to Tesla about this and the advice I got was to leave in the car in neutral overnight so air can get in the gap between the pads and rotors to dry out. Sometimes I have driven around the underground and braked heavily to dry off the pads. It did work somewhat.
I spoke to Tesla about this and the advice I got was to leave in the car in neutral overnight so air can get in the gap between the pads and rotors to dry out. Sometimes I have driven around the underground and braked heavily to dry off the pads. It did work somewhat.
