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Reduced price Autopilot & FSD for existing owners announced March 1st

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Self parking requires two cars perfectly spaced apart with a spot in between as you slowly drive by. Works every once in a while. It also wants to park in between cars on major roadways in traffic for some reason. The features are gimmicks and party tricks right now. I do find autopilot and auto-steer to be useful and generally reliable. It does stop too hard, especially if someone turns in front of you.

I agree, TACC is the only thing that is fairly worthwhile, the new "AP" package is just right, EAP/FSD are as you perfectly outlined, "party tricks". That said, almost every car has TACC now. I'd say the Tesla's is one of the better ones. Definitely better than Acura Watch, and probably a tad better than Volvo's PAII.
 
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I don't think anyone's saying "HW3 isn't coming" - I think some people are saying that a retrofit isn't coming. And I'm firmly in that camp. If Tesla can give HW 2.0 and 2.5 owners "FSD" without a retrofit, even if it means all that is, is shitty and half-assed traffic light detection that works 8% of the time, that's what'll happen.

Except, it's not what will happen, because that won't meet the promised features of FSD.

(and that goes double for everyone who bought it prior to a couple weeks ago when they greatly narrowed the defined features)




I d
People seem to think that FSD is a contract for a replacement autopilot computer. It isn't.

Yeah, I know. "Elon tweeted it! Elon said it on a sales call!" - and that doesn't bind Tesla to *anything*. This is what people don't get. Yes "Elon said it". And contract wise, between you and Tesla, that means NOTHING.



This simply is not true.


If the CEO of a company explicitly promises you a physical deliverable if you purchase something from them, and you materially rely on that promise when making the purchase, that absolutely, legally, means something.

How much you "like' Elon or not doesn't enter into it.
 
Prepare then. I’d love to get a refund on EAP and then just purchase normal AP. Frankly, none of the features of EAP have proved to have any value. Summon can’t exit out of my extremely normal and wide garage, the tiny seam between the foundation and my driveway confuses it, and I’m supposed to expect it’s going to drop me off at Costco, navigate a parking lot full of lunatics with shopping carts, park itself and then do the reverse to come get me when I’m done? You’ve gotta be kidding me. The car will get confused, get stuck and cause a clusterf*ck in the Costco parking lot resulting in serious Anti-Tesla rage by everyone including the owner who has to shamefully go address their stuck robo-car while being scolded by every person in the vicinity. Sign me up for that!!!

Furthermore, NoA, it barely works, it doesn’t slow down to appropriate speeds for overpasses, it can’t make up its mind when or how to change lanes (faster, slower, oh my), it poorly navigates construction areas. I’m supposed to believe it can navigate my local streets with kids playing, cyclists, delivery vehicles, people backing out of driveways.

I just don’t see any of this stuff actually working. It’s at best a gimmick and science fair exhibit to show off to interested passengers. My wife doesn’t even let me use NoA any more, and even when she hears the TACC chimes go on she’s frustrated and sighs, expecting a lot of jolting, unnecessary deactivation dings, sudden braking, etc.

I paid $5K for EAP, I don’t envision using its features in the time I own this car outside of farting around in empty parking lots. I now basically realize I donated to Tesla R&D and am a for-pay alpha tester.
LOL, I have the same concerns about store parking lots.

I think Tesla will surprise us soon with their beta fsd system that works pretty well and requires our hands on the wheel shaking it every 8 seconds. It will beep every time it gets confused, which will be often. Feature complete. Tesla then needs years of data to go to the next level where hands are off wheel, but driver is still sitting there.

They want and need to go there because their biggest money maker in the future would be autonomous semi trucks. But, they aren’t obligated to take most of us fsd buyers with them all the way. New FSD definition owners are only promised autopilot on steroids. Tesla may give us more, but they don’t have to.

Legacy FSD buyers, and how many of them are there really are promised more?

How does Tesla get out of that one if they have to? Easy. Provide the same basic fsd that is given to all the new fsd buyers. Most fsd early buyers will accept this answer. For the ones who don’t, most will have traded their cars in and second owners aren’t contractually entitled to anything. Of the small group of remaining complainers, tell them they can cancel version 1 fsd and get a credit towards a new car on a case by case basis when they complain. But, if Tesla is still working on the Tesla Network in 2025, how many early FSD buyers will be left? Most of those early owners are upper middle class and wealthy, so they will have the newest car with a 900 mile range anyway.

I am just making this point to say that Tesla may have the best intentions, but they aren’t legally obligated to fulfill a no timeline promise to any of us.
 
I agree, TACC is the only thing that is fairly worthwhile, the new "AP" package is just right, EAP/FSD are as you perfectly outlined, "party tricks". That said, almost every car has TACC now. I'd say the Tesla's is one of the better ones. Definitely better than Acura Watch, and probably a tad better than Volvo's PAII.
I don’t know much about what other manufacturers have developed towards autonomy. It sounds like Mercedes is pretty advanced? So, will Tesla have to include AP at some point or build it into the price? I assume Tesla is ahead of everyone else by a few miles, even Waymo.
 
I don’t know much about what other manufacturers have developed towards autonomy. It sounds like Mercedes is pretty advanced? So, will Tesla have to include AP at some point or build it into the price? I assume Tesla is ahead of everyone else by a few miles, even Waymo.

I think on the premium trims and/or models (X/S) they need to. Benz and Cadillac (Super Cruise) is pretty darn good, I think this will be standard place on cars. I do think the new AP package and pricing helps at least bring it more inline.
 
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I think on the premium trims and/or models (X/S) they need to. Benz and Cadillac (Super Cruise) is pretty darn good, I think this will be standard place on cars. I do think the new AP package and pricing helps at least bring it more inline.


Supercruise is not only not standard, it's only offered on a single model they are discontinuing.

(though it's "coming" to other models- but expect it'll cost money there too... it also doesn't work NEARLY as many places as AP does)
 
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The funny thing about FSD is that Tesla is really selling a dream. That's what people are paying for.

When I bought my AP2 Model X two years ago, it was supposed to come with automatic wipers. Fast forward to today, and it only now seems to be working half way decently. In my 3, it pretty much doesn't work at all! (Isn't it just the same software? Don't know why the difference between the two cars.) So if Tesla is supposed to let you sleep in the car in two years but it takes longer than that to fix automatic wipers, I'm not sure how to reconcile the two.

Parallel parking always worked well from day one, but perpendicular parking is horrendously slow even after owning my X for two years. By the time you've parked, the entire parking lot is so angry that everybody will end up keying your car.

Even just using TACC in the city, the car doesn't follow the car in front closely enough and takes a while to start accelerating again in bumper to bumper traffic.

I'm sure when FSD comes, there will be a basic version that works but extremely slowly and awkwardly, very similar to automatic wipers and automatic parking. But it will be so slow that you won't be able to use it much without people getting pissed at you.

I passed on FSD for one of my cars, but having said all of the above, am wondering whether I should have bought into the dream.
 
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Even just using TACC in the city, the car doesn't follow the car in front closely enough and takes a while to start accelerating again in bumper to bumper traffic..


Model 3 owners manual describing TACC-

M3 owners manual said:
Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on city streets or on roads where traffic conditions are constantly changing.
 
Supercruise is not only not standard, it's only offered on a single model they are discontinuing.

(though it's "coming" to other models- but expect it'll cost money there too... it also doesn't work NEARLY as many places as AP does)

I never said it was included, I just commented that it's pretty good, and I do believe these will become more standard on premium cars. Sorry.
 
I assume Tesla is ahead of everyone else by a few miles, even Waymo.
Not sure what makes you think that. While there is a remote possibility that Tesla has some secret advanced self-driving in their labs, they have never demonstrated anything remotely approaching what Waymo (or GM Cruise, for that matter) already do in public streets. And features that are "cutting edge" for Tesla (such as traffic light recognition) have been mastered by Waymo years ago.

More generally, I believe going beyond what Waymo et al. are doing will be increasingly difficult. Self-driving appears to follow the Pareto principle, i.e. the first 80% are relatively easy and the remaining 20% incredibly hard. Waymo and some others are arguably deep in the "hard" part at this point, and accordingly progress has slowed down a lot.
 
Not sure what makes you think that. While there is a remote possibility that Tesla has some secret advanced self-driving in their labs, they have never demonstrated anything remotely approaching what Waymo (or GM Cruise, for that matter) already do in public streets. And features that are "cutting edge" for Tesla (such as traffic light recognition) have been mastered by Waymo years ago.

More generally, I believe going beyond what Waymo et al. are doing will be increasingly difficult. Self-driving appears to follow the Pareto principle, i.e. the first 80% are relatively easy and the remaining 20% incredibly hard. Waymo and some others are arguably deep in the "hard" part at this point, and accordingly progress has slowed down a lot.

Tesla is so confident now about FSD, I am hoping they have made secret advancements then. I have watched some Waymo videos and it just seems like the tech is still far away. Maybe we will have a couple tech leaps here soon. Otherwise, we are at least 5 years out I suppose. Elon has said they are the most advanced, but he says a lot of things.
 
I asked Tesla to fix my account so I could purchase FSD upgrade before the price increased! They failed me. got it added the 2 days after the price increase.
This is part of the response to my first customer support message received on 22nd in response to my first message sent on the 12th.

"I apologize for the log wait and appreciate your patience on our response. At the moment we are not able to verify what vehicles will need hardware 3 but if we do need to have it installed on your vehicle it is included in the price of your autopilot purchase. If you are still unable to see a place to purchase the Full Self-driving capability on your account I would be happy to assist you in getting that added onto your account. Please let me know if you are still in need of assistance."

So I'm not happy that it was not fixed in a timely manner and now at $5,000 they will not guarantee new hardware?
Sent responses back to all that I had contacted, with no reply as of yet.

What recourse do we have if any? And who can we contact?
 
I asked Tesla to fix my account so I could purchase FSD upgrade before the price increased! They failed me. got it added the 2 days after the price increase.
This is part of the response to my first customer support message received on 22nd in response to my first message sent on the 12th.

"I apologize for the log wait and appreciate your patience on our response. At the moment we are not able to verify what vehicles will need hardware 3 but if we do need to have it installed on your vehicle it is included in the price of your autopilot purchase. If you are still unable to see a place to purchase the Full Self-driving capability on your account I would be happy to assist you in getting that added onto your account. Please let me know if you are still in need of assistance."

So I'm not happy that it was not fixed in a timely manner and now at $5,000 they will not guarantee new hardware?
Sent responses back to all that I had contacted, with no reply as of yet.

What recourse do we have if any? And who can we contact?
Good luck. I have yet to have them respond to a single email other than an auto response. If they fixed their website, they could lay off 75% of customer service because it seems like most calls are to try to fix problems that shouldn’t be there in the first place. :eek:
 
I called Tesla when this whole thing happened multiple times and thought I was getting free AP to make up for the price drop. Customer service actually told other people that. I bought in 2019 as well but did not purchase AP or FSD. Originally I was supposed to get free AP and you were supposed to get free FSD. They finally told me after long holds that I was not getting free anything. He said if I had bought EAP I would get free FSD, but since I didn’t I would get nothing. I’m not sure even he was right, but if he was, you should have automatically gotten it.

People who ordered their cars but they were not yet delivered got free FSD added on automatically. People in Europe got some extras too. Others continued waiting and got nothing.

So I think originally they were going to give out free AP, then only free FSD, and then Elon reversed course and said it was a mistake.

If I were you I would CALL and ask if you were supposed to get it for free. You should try. I think you were originally, but they changed their minds about it. Still no one knows for sure.

The final us deal was?:

Undelivered cars with EAP=free FSD
Delivered cars AP+FSD=$5k
Delivered EAP cars FSD=$2k

Elon said it was not linear, so the sale was never meant to be fair. It was their response to an angry outcry on twitter and it calmed a lot of people down and earned Tesla a ton of cash. It also angered everyone who paid $3k for FSD, so they then canceled the whole sale to end the controversy.

End the controversy? Don't you mean create a whole new level/group of disappointed customers because they didn't think through a fix to a problem created by decisions they didn't think through? Wait, missed a step. First lower the price. Upset customers. Then give FSD for $5k from $7k, no notice. More upset customers. Then price FSD at $11k, again no notice. Is the key here a lack of communication?
 
Good luck. I have yet to have them respond to a single email other than an auto response. If they fixed their website, they could lay off 75% of customer service because it seems like most calls are to try to fix problems that shouldn’t be there in the first place. :eek:

I agree. That's why they are getting rid of the sales teams and restored the referral program. Sales can do nothing unless it online? They can only tell me to login.
Every email I ever got back from customer support starts with "I apologize..."
I will still continue to send out emails to support and just see what happens.
 
This simply is not true.

If the CEO of a company explicitly promises you a physical deliverable if you purchase something from them, and you materially rely on that promise when making the purchase, that absolutely, legally, means something.

How much you "like' Elon or not doesn't enter into it.

Dude. I know from your other posts on this that you're an absolute die-hard, dyed-in-the-wool, will-stop-at-nothing Elon sycophant. But no, a CEO's tweets are NOT binding, at least not in respect to a company's customers.

Elon said that the new Roadster will have goddamn rocket boosters. Does this mean, to you, that customers who receive their 2020 Roadsters without the power of flight now have legal recourse to get it installed? Seriously, I want to know if you actually believe this.

You've already had all of this explained to you though, by people with lots of corporate and legal experience, and your fingers remain firmly in your ears.

I fully expect you to move the goalposts a few years from now when HW 2.5 FSD purchasers get oogatz besides a few "minimum viable product" software trinkets and doo-dads.

Get back to me when you get your "guaranteed" HW3 retrofit and Roadsters are turbo-boosting through the air like KITT over potholes.

I'll wait.
 
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Dude. I know from your other posts on this that you're an absolute die-hard, dyed-in-the-wool, will-stop-at-nothing Elon sycophant. But no, a CEO's tweets are NOT binding, at least not in respect to a company's customers.

I mean, they are though. Legally.

If they are specific statements upon which a purchaser would rely materially when making a purchase. Which is the case here.



That's quite different from "we think sometime in the future this COULD happen..." type speculation.


Elon said that the new Roadster will have goddamn rocket boosters. Does this mean, to you, that customers who receive their 2020 Roadsters without the power of flight now have legal recourse to get it installed?

Given he did not actually say they'd fly no. He said the Roadster might do "something like this" in regards to a picture of a hovering delorean that was posted. Which is not terribly specific.

More importantly though- the thrusters are part of a SpaceX package discussed speculatively not actually for sale right now

So it's impossible for anyone to have materially relied on that when buying the package. Since, again, it's not actually sold right now.


You seem to not understand the difference though. It's ok- a court will.


Seriously, I want to know if you actually believe this.

That the CEO making material representations in public statements holds legal weight?

Of course I do, since it's a fact of law.

It's odd you don't.

Generally speaking If one party makes a statement or a promise that causes another party to rely on that statement in such a way that he or she is financially injured by that reliance, then a court will enforce the statement or promise as if it was a completed contract.


The CEO of Tesla has stated, repeatedly, that if you give them money for FSD you get the HW3 upgrade free. He even explicitly described it as a discount on future capability by getting that HW with the purchase.

That'd absolutely be something a buyer might rely on, and be financially injured by that reliance if the promise is later broken.


You've already had all of this explained to you though, by people with lots of corporate and legal experience, and your fingers remain firmly in your ears.

When did that happen? PLEASE provide a link to someone with "lots of corporate and legal experience" explaining something demonstrably not true to me. I apparently missed it.

Or you imagined it, could go either way.
 
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Self parking requires two cars perfectly spaced apart with a spot in between as you slowly drive by. Works every once in a while. It also wants to park in between cars on major roadways in traffic for some reason. The features are gimmicks and party tricks right now. I do find autopilot and auto-steer to be useful and generally reliable. It does stop too hard, especially if someone turns in front of you.
Yes, I've been using it since July, so I am aware of the particular inadequacies and find myself either disabling TACC/autopilot or accelerating to counter the braking in such scenarios (it also takes the extra precaution of braking heavily when others are turning from the opposite direction onto a perpendicular street; better safe than sorry is how they've coded that algorithm, I'm sure). Hopefully, I can chance upon the right conditions to at least experience the autopark feature.
 
Hello: I paid for AP (lowered price of $2k) about 2 weeks ago... I have been waiting for software? Am I supposed to get software update ? trying to understand how to know if AP is enabled on my M3?
BTW, this morning I got the most recent software version that I downloaded: 2019.8.3

Please let me know how AP is enabled... Thanks!!
 
I wonder what we will be debating on this forum years from now. Hopefully it won't be any of the following subjects:

1) Will FSD ever become a reality?
2) Will Elon offer HW3 upgrades to those who purchased FSD?
3) Will the people who bought before the price drops ever get over it?
4) Will Elon learn to communicate stuff through his executive team instead of using Twitter?
5) Will Tesla figure out how to build cars without body panel gaps?
6) Does the SR+ really have physical speakers that have been software disabled?
7) Will Tesla figure out how to keep Sentry mode turned on permanently?
8) Will Tesla decide to shut down its retail stores, keep them, or add hundreds more?
9) Will Tesla keep its prices constant for more than 30 days?
10) Will the referral program that gives you a free roadster and launches your photo into space ever come back?
11) Will any of this stuff even matter years from now.

The only one I predict with certainty is #11. The answer is no.