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REEVs

Discussion in 'Future Cars' started by TEG, Dec 21, 2007.

  1. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    So, Elon says "Tesla will likely provide both pure electric and range extended electric drive options in the future. We refer to the latter as a REEV (Range Extended Electric Vehicle) to distinguish it from “hybrids,” which are really just gasoline engine cars with a small electric motor and tiny battery. The REEV battery in our scenario would fully cover the range needs for reasonable daily usage, but there would be an onboard generator for the occasional long trip."

    Lets review other places we have seen this "REEV" acronym before:

    Here, Darryl says: “Range Extended EV” is not just PR spin for series hybrid platform, it actually makes sense from a customer perspective.

    Here, GM called their Volt concept car an "E-Rev", but others suggested they like REEV better.
    GM definition: "A vehicle that functions as a full-performance electric vehicle when energy is available from an onboard battery and have an auxilliary energy supply that is only engaged when the battery energy is depleted."

    Here Volt bloggers debate the validity of the new nomenclature.

    Over here, way back in July, someone recommended the REEV name for the GM Volt.

    And here, back in June, was more debate on what to call the Volt.

    So, it appears that the whole E-REV, RE-EV naming is a product of GM trying to find a name "other than hybrid" to call the Volt. Looks like Tesla is following GM.
     
  2. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Quote from Tony:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Chevy Volt, as described by GM, is a plug-in hybrid, it's a PHEV. It's the archetype, the apotheosis of PHEVs, it's exactly what PHEV advocates have been asking for. How can you call it anything else?

    The Detroit News may or may not like the "plug-in hybrid" moniker, but so what? Nobody gave them authority to rewrite the language. Nobody gave that authority to GM either. It is what it is, and calling it something else only means you're trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. These terms already have well-established meanings (particularly thanks to advocacy groups like Plug-In Partners and Calcars).

    And no, it's not "an electric car with a range extender" either. That is GM's weasel language, that's their spin. That makes it sound like an electric car with a magical little box of fairy dust that makes it go farther. I believe in calling a spade a spade, and calling a PHEV a PHEV.

    I've actually overheard producers of yogurt whining that they can't call their product something else (apparently yogurt sounds "yucky" to many people) -- but there are truth in labeling laws in the food industry that prevent them from selling yogurt as something other than yogurt. If such laws existed in the auto industry, GM would never get away with calling the Volt an electric car. And if GM gets away with it, it'll only be because lazy or dishonest journalists give them a free ride.
    Posted at 8:42PM on Jun 10th 2007 by Tony Belding
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Tony, you still feel that way today, or have you caved now that both GM *and* Tesla are going with REEV?
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #3 TEG, Dec 21, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2007
  4. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Mainecoon Butler

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    It is crystal clear now why Martin had to leave.

    The board got a knee jerk reaction seeing others building hybrids and "REEVs". "To hell with gasoline" or "To hell with Martin"?

    :mad:
     
  5. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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    #5 tonybelding, Dec 22, 2007
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2007
    I still feel the same thing, that this is fundamentally dishonest marketing spin.

    Both GM and Tesla appear desperate to call their plug-in hybrid cars anything but a hybrid. I can understand their motivation, from a marketing standpoint -- but in my book being motivated to lie doesn't make it okay to lie.

    Here are some more specific criticisms. . .

    1. Terms like "range extender" or "range-extended" are too vague. It could mean anything. If you didn't already know what they were talking about and heard these terms would imagine some kind of super battery. But you aren't getting a super battery, you're getting a gas engine.

    2. Electricity is mentioned, but not gasoline -- even though a Chevy Volt owner could, potentially, never plug in his car and run it entirely on gasoline.

    3. As I noted before, the term PHEV is a logical extension from HEV and has already been established by advocacy groups and the press.
     
  6. BlackbirdHighway

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    One aspect of having gasoline powered range extenders or whatever you want to call them has not been brought up by anyone.

    As more and more pure BEVs get sold, owners will start asking for access to charging facilities. Not the in-and-out fast chargers that work like gas stations, but I'm talking about at hotels, resort destinations, family theme parks like Disneyworld and 6 Flags, shopping malls, parking garages, and even apartments. It will take a long time, but eventually businesses will respond to customer demand and install charging facilites. If electric power is going to someday replace oil based power, that infrastructure will have to get established.

    With PHEVs or REEVs, you don't need these, you'll just fill it up with gas instead. Without the demand for chargers, that infrastructure will never happen. Without the charging infrastructure, we will continue to be tied to oil. The demand for oil could be reduced, but the ties cannot be broken.

    The REEV is really a crutch. Maybe for a while the crutch is needed, but you can also become dependent on the crutch, and never learn to walk without it.
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Good point, BlackbirdHighway

    I can see it now,
    Q: "Can you please consider installing a charging port for my EV"?
    A: "Oh we already have plenty of customers/employees with EVs parking here. But they all got that new REEV kind so they don't need a plug. You should upgrade."
     
  8. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    What a waste. Far from continuing to push its own proprietory technology for BEVs, Tesla is letting itself get dragged down to the same technology level as the status quo.

    It won't be long until Tesla ends up just designing and making systems for Big Auto and claiming it's being radical.
     
  9. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    One of the things that concerned me when Tesla opened the Michigan design center and hired a bunch of "experienced" auto engineers was that they would push the company to be more like an old Detroit auto company. Detroit has built REEVs before but we didn't see them come on the market. Why not?

    Why will Tesla be able to do what PNGV failed to deliver?
     
  10. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    And, what about FreedomCAR?

    It seems to be the replacement for PNGV.

    I think I was happier when I was just doing web research on the "pure BEV" situation. With REEVs/PHEVs it seems that it is even more political. Some articles I read by Ralph Nader suggest that PNGV & FreedomCAR were really just a way to provide funding to big auto to lock up patents in this area. What if Tesla finds that their REEV design is already covered by patents that resulted from PNGV & FreedomCAR?

    Yikes!
     
  11. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  12. malcolm

    malcolm Active Member

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    They'll have to pay the fees or do some sort of discount deal on their own goods and services.

    This is all dull as hell.

    Elon is proposing to lead the electric vehicle revolution by making Big Auto the client instead of the competitor.

    (Dear Tzar Alexander. Nicky baby! Hi, here's a thing, what kind of revolution did you have in mind? Let's do lunch. Yours, Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov)

    The Roadster production will transfer to the US (Big Auto will be happy to bask in the positive publicity since sales will remain small). Whitestar will be a PHEV produced in the US with someone like GM. Ditto Bluestar.

    And Elon will get to be the youngest State Governor in US history.

    Another American Dream successfully realised. Congrats.
     
  13. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    BH point is good and is counter to Ego's plan to "which is to do everything possible to increase the number of electric miles driven”. Delaying plug in stations will slow the Electric Vehicle's progress.

    I also concur with Tony's marketing ploy comments. Obviously the public must be educated that there are two kind of hybrids and that one is better for the environment and mileage than the other.

    CARB has already done enough to give us new anachronistic acronyms.
     
  14. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    Thankfully we are already seeing most malls with 300+ parking spaces at least got 2-3 EV spots with slow recharge possibility and they city goverment in Oslo has decided to build 400 new recharging stations within the town. But of course most EV's here in Oslo are of the speedy NEV kind.

    The problem the way I see it is that most of the NEV's and cars like the new Think is intended and sold as a nr 2 car. A primary city car intended for short commutes.
    The prius on the other hand is intended as the nr 1 car to be the primary and only car. The Whitestar obviously is intended as a nr 1 car, which is why Tesla is getting scared that it's range will be too short to satisfy american customers. Hence the messing around with dino-engines. I would by satisfied with a much shorter range and I'm sure there are plenty customers in Europe generally and Norway in particular that would love a pure EV whitestar I really really hope they will release a pure EV whitestar and not only a REEV version...

    Cobos
     
  15. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  16. Brent

    Brent Member

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  17. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Marketing probably made it "E-REV" since they thought "rev" sounded sporty and so it sounded similar "E-Flex". Of course it's ridiculous since there's no need for a hyphen in "extended - range electric vehicle." And if there were, they put it in the wrong place. I suggest GM go ahead and trademark E-Rev like I assume they must have trademarked E-Flex, since I think it better other companies don't use the term.

    What does the E in E-Flex stand for anyway?
    Electric?
    Energy?
    Environment?
    Earth?
    All of the above? .... how Zen.
     
  18. Michael

    Michael Member

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    Oh well. I guess the new Tesla CEO has made a decision with his comment: 'Of course not just another car maker but the only one committed to exclusively make Zero Emission Electric Vehicles', that Tesla will NOT be considering a lower cost PHEV. Seems a shame IMHO.
     
  19. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    #19 doug, Jul 10, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2008
    Given that the Volt and other PHEVs are set to come out at the same time as Tesla's sedan, I think it's good that they chose to go the pure EV route since it sets them apart. I think most people will reason, "Why risk getting a PHEV from an unproven startup like Tesla, when you can get one from an established major car manufacturer?", unless there is something that makes Tesla's unique.

    I do, however, hope Tesla makes their sedan in a way that it could be compatible with a trailer like this one:
    rav_longranger02.jpg

    Rav Long Ranger
     
  20. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    Yes a hireable trailer or a generator you can put inside the car is probably the good solution to solve the Road trip problem until the batteries are good enough to get you as far as you can go in a day...

    Cobos
     

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