Refresh Model S/X yoke controls owners survey

[MikeKFE]

Lots of complaints about the horn button. A lot of cars over the years have had "horn buttons". A few years of Honda NSX and S2000's among others. Heaven help you if you ride a motorcycle. I owned one car where the horn button was on the dash. Of course I'm a really really old guy.

After nearly 14 hours of owning my MSLR, I think that, for me, it’s not an issue of the horn being a button.

it’s the fact that it’s a small target AND it’s not in a fixed position.

Since it’s a rectangle, the button isn’t always in the same spot so I have to hunt. This morning I was turning into a parking lot and another car was pulling out. She didn’t see that I had paused for her to pull out so I’d have room to get in. I wanted to give a polite honk to get her attention.

But where’s the horn button?

Oh, over there…

That’s said, this is a 1.5/10 on the scale of things that I care about

 

[Team Geezer]

After nearly 14 hours of owning my MSLR, I think that, for me, it’s not an issue of the horn being a button.

it’s the fact that it’s a small target AND it’s not in a fixed position.

Since it’s a rectangle, the button isn’t always in the same spot so I have to hunt. This morning I was turning into a parking lot and another car was pulling out. She didn’t see that I had paused for her to pull out so I’d have room to get in. I wanted to give a polite honk to get her attention.

But where’s the horn button?

Oh, over there…

That’s said, this is a 1.5/10 on the scale of things that I care about

True. I hadn't given much thought to it actually moving. Fortunately it's mostly at low speeds.

 

[Mark II]

When my AP disengages because I take over the steering, TACC stays on until I brake. If you set single tap for AP and only want TACC, can't you disengage via the yoke and then be in TACC mode?

Unfortunately not. Which is another reason I hate the yoke + buttons nonsense. I don't have this issue with the 2018 since it is very easy to use the stalk to single our double pull. For some reason I always seem to get it wrong trying to double tap the wheel on the yoke.

 

[Mark II]

FWIW, we test drove a BMW iX 2 weeks ago because my wife was thinking about upgrading our X.

It was a MASSIVE disappointment. Felt junky. Very plasticy. 1822 buttons and that stupid iDrive dial.

FWIW - I never liked BMWs. There are many other EV options out there these days, and there will be a lot more in ~2 years when my MSLR lease expires with much improved autonomous features.

Personally I am partial to Hyundai, mainly because my wife had a 2016 Sonata before taking over my 2018 MS. I really liked the overall comfort and ergonomics of the Sonata. I also think Hyundai is a potential contender for decent FSD capabilities.

 

[mr10012]

Unfortunately not. Which is another reason I hate the yoke + buttons nonsense. I don't have this issue with the 2018 since it is very easy to use the stalk to single our double pull. For some reason I always seem to get it wrong trying to double tap the wheel on the yoke.

Are you sure? I have AP/NOA on double-tap, and I agree that it is awkward (although I am getting better at it). If I override via the yoke, the car stays on TACC. It is a bit hard to tell because as far as I can tell the only indication is the blue max speed below the greyed yoke icon. Maybe this behavior changes if you set FSD to be on single-tap...

 

[uscbucsfan]

There are many other EV options out there these days, and there will be a lot more in ~2 years when my MSLR lease expires with much improved autonomous features.

Regardless of your qualms with Tesla, I don't believe this portion to be true. What car has or is on pace to deliver "much improved autonomous features"?

I've driven a Mache E with Blue Cruise, GM's Super Cruise, and Rivian's Driver+ and none work as well as AP and obviously aren't even attempting what FSD Beta does. And yes I know that FSD Beta isn't "full self driving" and I'm not sure they will ever reach that goal, but it does more than any other mass produced car currently.

While I haven't driven the Mercedes version, they themselves state limited to 37 mph on select roads and disengages almost immediately if you stop looking forward.

Companies like Hyundai are just starting pilots of autonomous driving this year. They will take years before they are able to do the things that FSD Beta can do. It's obviously an extremely difficult task as Waymo and Tesla have said/shown. It's not going to be a sure thing that even in 2 years there is competing solution available to the masses, much less "much improved".

 

[Mark II]

Are you sure? I have AP/NOA on double-tap, and I agree that it is awkward (although I am getting better at it). If I override via the yoke, the car stays on TACC. It is a bit hard to tell because as far as I can tell the only indication is the blue max speed below the greyed yoke icon. Maybe this behavior changes if you set FSD to be on single-tap...

Sorry, I think we crossed paths somewhere. Here is what I experience:
- Set single tap for AP/NOA - It disengages TACC when I move the yoke.
- Set double tap for AP/NOA - TACC remains engaged when I move the yoke.

I currently have it set at single tap, because double tap is just a pain. Now I can no longer use TACC.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Sorry, I think we crossed paths somewhere. Here is what I experience:
- Set single tap for AP/NOA - It disengages TACC when I move the yoke.
- Set double tap for AP/NOA - TACC remains engaged when I move the yoke.

I currently have it set at single tap, because double tap is just a pain. Now I can no longer use TACC.

I love that TACC doesn't engage with single tap. I wish I could set that up with my MY (maybe I can). I hate TACC and wouldn't use it and when I do disengage, hate that it's left on.

I do agree the double tap isn't great with the yoke.

 

[mr10012]

Sorry, I think we crossed paths somewhere. Here is what I experience:
- Set single tap for AP/NOA - It disengages TACC when I move the yoke.
- Set double tap for AP/NOA - TACC remains engaged when I move the yoke.

I currently have it set at single tap, because double tap is just a pain. Now I can no longer use TACC.

Got it. I did not realize that when you set single tap for AP/NOA it doesn't go to TACC when you move the yoke. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Mark II]

Regardless of your qualms with Tesla, I don't believe this portion to be true. What car has or is on pace to deliver "much improved autonomous features"?

I've driven a Mache E with Blue Cruise, GM's Super Cruise, and Rivian's Driver+ and none work as well as AP and obviously aren't even attempting what FSD Beta does. And yes I know that FSD Beta isn't "full self driving" and I'm not sure they will ever reach that goal, but it does more than any other mass produced car currently.

While I haven't driven the Mercedes version, they themselves state limited to 37 mph on select roads and disengages almost immediately if you stop looking forward.

Companies like Hyundai are just starting pilots of autonomous driving this year. They will take years before they are able to do the things that FSD Beta can do. It's obviously an extremely difficult task as Waymo and Tesla have said/shown. It's not going to be a sure thing that even in 2 years there is competing solution available to the masses, much less "much improved".

Put it this way. FSD is a party trick right now, and will be for the foreseeable future at the rate things are improving. If I have to keep my hands on the wheel and watch the road all the time, I may as well be driving. Until FSD is able to drive me from point A to point B while I do something else it is not that useful for most people. If FSD actually did that I would not have any issues with the yoke either. The reality is yoke + current FSD is a fail. When I use FSD I am far less relaxed than when I drive myself. Until that switches it is not really a feature.

Other manufacturers are adding autonomous features that are actually useful for most daily driving, and work. For example: Self parking competition: Audi Vs Tesla

The reality for me is that I already have a 2018 with FSD and unlimited charging that I prefer to drive versus the MSLR most due to the stupid yoke. So when the MSLR lease expires I will be looking at other options. Yes, I may end up getting another MS, although I think that is far less likely than when I made that decision ~2 years ago to order the MSLR.

 

[Mark II]

I love that TACC doesn't engage with single tap. I wish I could set that up with my MY (maybe I can). I hate TACC and wouldn't use it and when I do disengage, hate that it's left on.

I do agree the double tap isn't great with the yoke.

Most the time I do want AP, however there are times (known locations) I just know it going to mess up, since it always does. I would then like to switch to TACC.

Once you change the setting to single tap you will suddenly become more aware of the times you actually rely on TACC remaining on, as the car will suddenly slow down when all you wanted to do was correct the steering.

Note, of all the issues I have with the yoke this is the least bothersome. For me the yoke is a death by thousand cuts kind of problem. Each issue on it's own is not that big a deal. It's just that there are many, and they add up to an overall frustrating experience.

I don't always realize how frustrating the yoke is until I drive the 2018 after a few weeks of only driving with a yoke. It's genuinely more relaxing. It's equivalent someone turning off a loud noise that you got used to.

 

[Boza]

Put it this way. FSD is a party trick right now, and will be for the foreseeable future at the rate things are improving. If I have to keep my hands on the wheel and watch the road all the time, I may as well be driving. Until FSD is able to drive me from point A to point B while I do something else it is not that useful for most people. If FSD actually did that I would not have any issues with the yoke either. The reality is yoke + current FSD is a fail. When I use FSD I am far less relaxed than when I drive myself. Until that switches it is not really a feature.

Other manufacturers are adding autonomous features that are actually useful for most daily driving, and work. For example: Self parking competition: Audi Vs Tesla

The reality for me is that I already have a 2018 with FSD and unlimited charging that I prefer to drive versus the MSLR most due to the stupid yoke. So when the MSLR lease expires I will be looking at other options. Yes, I may end up getting another MS, although I think that is far less likely than when I made that decision ~2 years ago to order the MSLR.

FSD is very ambiguous; that is part of the reason people have conflicting opinions (and Tesla contributes to the confusion).

There are two main parameters: the level of autonomy (MB is better with its L3, while Tesla and pretty much everyone else has L2) and coverage of use cases (Tesla has a slight lead on this one and I am ignoring beta because… well, it it beta).
As a driver assistant feature FSD is pretty good. I regularly drive 200+mi on a highway and use it extensively. Definitely less tired at the end of the trip. Would I let it drive in inclement weather, in more complex situations (e.g. road construction, city, secondary roads) - absolutely not! It will take years, may be decades, until FSD reaches parity with a human driver in terms of scope and complexity of the tasks. Currently, it is like 12yr old that is starting to take driving lessons and needs supervision. When FSD goes toe to toe with a Finnish rally driver then we can talk about parity. For now, it is awesome driver assistance feature and all the talk about robotaxis is a dream that may or may not come true. All the power (and luck) to them for trying but that is still beta (with the appropriate consumer base).

The yoke was the only thing that stopped me from upgrading my 2020 MSLR. I can see it on the track (along with progressive steering - something that is sorely missing) along with proper UI. The way it is implemented now, it is an abomination. Yes, it is a novelty and one can get used to it, but it is largely inferior to the traditional wheel and stalks in a normal, everyday city driving.
- Better visibility. The original Tesla claim that is very, very questionable. I have not seen anyone here mentioning that they have it. Most of the positive posts are “I got used to it” - hardly a strong endorsement.
- Worse control. In the city people have to take many, different turns. That means that controls on the wheel are always at a different spot in relation to the driver’s body. Human brain is very advanced and can track that (or update through a glance) but it is harder than having an object that is stationary in relation to your body coordinate system, i.e. a stalk on the console or center horn button. I have not seen studies but will not be surprised if so-called yoke drivers are less attentive and make more mistakes.
- Worse interaction. Haptic buttons do not have the necessary strong feedback/sensitivity. While that is ok for secondary functions, it is a problem for critical functions like signals, horn, etc. You have to be intentional when you do that and have a strong feedback so that you do not spend mental energy thinking about it.
- Worse control. Yokes, coupled with progressive steering (turning only 90’ each way) are very effective on the race track. Initially, the wheels had 2.5 turns each way to compensate for the lack of power steering (have you seen the gigantic truck wheels from the WWII era?). We got power steering but the 2.5 turns remained because they give us fine adjustment in city driving. Chopping part of the wheel forces the driver to have their hand in very limited spots, even crossing them - which would fail any driving test. That would not have been such a problem if the “yoke” was coupled with progressive steering - which Tesla did not do.
- Button positioning. On top of the fact that they are buttons, both signals are on the same side of the “yoke”! That requires much more mental power compared to left side for left turn and right side for the right turn. But they could not do that because left and right are very relative terms with the “yoke”.

Bottom line, the “yoke” is harder on the driver, even if it is a novelty and we can get used to it. Change != progress. However, more difficult control would not matter if the car is autonomous. And that is the crux of the problem. Tesla is religiously following the FSD path and because that technology is still immature they are breaking the more mature product - the awesome EV.

 

[uscbucsfan]

FSD is very ambiguous; that is part of the reason people have conflicting opinions (and Tesla contributes to the confusion).

There are two main parameters: the level of autonomy (MB is better with its L3, while Tesla and pretty much everyone else has L2) and coverage of use cases (Tesla has a slight lead on this one and I am ignoring beta because… well, it it beta).
As a driver assistant feature FSD is pretty good. I regularly drive 200+mi on a highway and use it extensively. Definitely less tired at the end of the trip. Would I let it drive in inclement weather, in more complex situations (e.g. road construction, city, secondary roads) - absolutely not! It will take years, may be decades, until FSD reaches parity with a human driver in terms of scope and complexity of the tasks. Currently, it is like 12yr old that is starting to take driving lessons and needs supervision. When FSD goes toe to toe with a Finnish rally driver then we can talk about parity. For now, it is awesome driver assistance feature and all the talk about robotaxis is a dream that may or may not come true. All the power (and luck) to them for trying but that is still beta (with the appropriate consumer base).

The yoke was the only thing that stopped me from upgrading my 2020 MSLR. I can see it on the track (along with progressive steering - something that is sorely missing) along with proper UI. The way it is implemented now, it is an abomination. Yes, it is a novelty and one can get used to it, but it is largely inferior to the traditional wheel and stalks in a normal, everyday city driving.
- Better visibility. The original Tesla claim that is very, very questionable. I have not seen anyone here mentioning that they have it. Most of the positive posts are “I got used to it” - hardly a strong endorsement.
- Worse control. In the city people have to take many, different turns. That means that controls on the wheel are always at a different spot in relation to the driver’s body. Human brain is very advanced and can track that (or update through a glance) but it is harder than having an object that is stationary in relation to your body coordinate system, i.e. a stalk on the console or center horn button. I have not seen studies but will not be surprised if so-called yoke drivers are less attentive and make more mistakes.
- Worse interaction. Haptic buttons do not have the necessary strong feedback/sensitivity. While that is ok for secondary functions, it is a problem for critical functions like signals, horn, etc. You have to be intentional when you do that and have a strong feedback so that you do not spend mental energy thinking about it.
- Worse control. Yokes, coupled with progressive steering (turning only 90’ each way) are very effective on the race track. Initially, the wheels had 2.5 turns each way to compensate for the lack of power steering (have you seen the gigantic truck wheels from the WWII era?). We got power steering but the 2.5 turns remained because they give us fine adjustment in city driving. Chopping part of the wheel forces the driver to have their hand in very limited spots, even crossing them - which would fail any driving test. That would not have been such a problem if the “yoke” was coupled with progressive steering - which Tesla did not do.
- Button positioning. On top of the fact that they are buttons, both signals are on the same side of the “yoke”! That requires much more mental power compared to left side for left turn and right side for the right turn. But they could not do that because left and right are very relative terms with the “yoke”.

Bottom line, the “yoke” is harder on the driver, even if it is a novelty and we can get used to it. Change != progress. However, more difficult control would not matter if the car is autonomous. And that is the crux of the problem. Tesla is religiously following the FSD path and because that technology is still immature they are breaking the more mature product - the awesome EV.

Statements like "the yoke is harder on the driver" or it's more difficult to control (which covers all of the buttons) are subjective.

My opinion and others who have voiced all over this site are also subjective, but I prefer the yoke to a regular wheel and dislike the transition to the round wheel and stalks in my Model Y compared to my Model S.

It looks like many have a progression from getting used to it to preferring it. I find it more comfortable and more fun to drive...but that doesn't mean you are incorrect on your views.

Also, no one crosses their hands unless they are trying to make a meme about it, there's no reason to do that...just as there's no reason to cross hands on a round wheel.

My only gripe is the horn and I'll never get over that or the lie that the horn can be moved to the middle with an update on all cars made after November 2021.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Put it this way. FSD is a party trick right now, and will be for the foreseeable future at the rate things are improving. If I have to keep my hands on the wheel and watch the road all the time, I may as well be driving. Until FSD is able to drive me from point A to point B while I do something else it is not that useful for most people. If FSD actually did that I would not have any issues with the yoke either. The reality is yoke + current FSD is a fail. When I use FSD I am far less relaxed than when I drive myself. Until that switches it is not really a feature.

Other manufacturers are adding autonomous features that are actually useful for most daily driving, and work. For example: Self parking competition: Audi Vs Tesla

The reality for me is that I already have a 2018 with FSD and unlimited charging that I prefer to drive versus the MSLR most due to the stupid yoke. So when the MSLR lease expires I will be looking at other options. Yes, I may end up getting another MS, although I think that is far less likely than when I made that decision ~2 years ago to order the MSLR.

All ADAS systems available to the consumer are a party trick in that view. Most require more attention than Tesla does that allows some flexibility in holding the wheel vs not holding and looking away to do things like change something on the screen.

The autopark in Tesla sucks....it's horrible. It's supposed to be reworked with the occupancy network, but like most promises, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Boza]

Statements like "the yoke is harder on the driver" or it's more difficult to control (which covers all of the buttons) are subjective.

My opinion and others who have voiced all over this site are also subjective, but I prefer the yoke to a regular wheel and dislike the transition to the round wheel and stalks in my Model Y compared to my Model S.

It looks like many have a progression from getting used to it to preferring it. I find it more comfortable and more fun to drive...but that doesn't mean you are incorrect on your views.

Also, no one crosses their hands unless they are trying to make a meme about it, there's no reason to do that...just as there's no reason to cross hands on a round wheel.

My only gripe is the horn and I'll never get over that or the lie that the horn can be moved to the middle with an update on all cars made after November 2021.

Why do you prefer the yoke? I mean, objectively, because subjectively levers could also be fun

 

[uscbucsfan]

Why do you prefer the yoke? I mean, objectively, because subjectively levers could also be fun

It's more comfortable, I like the turn signals more, I like the view...not only of the road by the screen.

I really LOVE auto shift (not directly related, but stalkless).

It's way better for FSD Beta and NoA for just the right leverage.

With the yoke, the car feels exciting and fun every time I drive.

I completely understand why those hate it. I just don't like the encompassing statements stating it's unsafe or more tiring, because they aren't encompassing.

I'll never be ok with the horn...with an airbag horn and better materials that last longer, it'd be pretty much perfect for me....

 

[Mark II]

It's more comfortable, I like the turn signals more, I like the view...not only of the road by the screen.

I really LOVE auto shift (not directly related, but stalkless).

It's way better for FSD Beta and NoA for just the right leverage.

With the yoke, the car feels exciting and fun every time I drive.

I completely understand why those hate it. I just don't like the encompassing statements stating it's unsafe or more tiring, because they aren't encompassing.

I'll never be ok with the horn...with an airbag horn and better materials that last longer, it'd be pretty much perfect for me....

FWIW - I do prefer the yoke for freeway driving. I find holding it with just my right hand provides enough torque to keep AP nag happy. With the round wheel I found the best was both hands at the bottom, even then I still had to jiggle it at times when the road was very straight. With the yoke I never need to jiggle it.

The problem is most my driving is city driving. That is when the yoke and buttons become a pain.

Had they implemented the yoke with variable steer by wire I think most people would not have had an issue with it. I also think they could have put mini stalks attach to the back of the yoke for indicator, gear shift, etc.

The horn is just plain dumb. No reason the could not make both the button and middle active. Then no one would complain.

 

[Boza]

Exactly! Comparable, may be even better, for highway but objectively worse in the city. Nothing wrong with “like” but that is subjective

Don’t get me wrong - I _love_ the yoke on the track but that is on the track and that is real yoke. For city driving the Tesla implementation is more of a show than a real thing. They did not go all the way. If they had progressive steering (1/2 turn) then a lot of the issues would not be there.

 

[mr10012]

The horn is just plain dumb. No reason the could not make both the button and middle active. Then no one would complain.

Elon tweeted in March 2021 that this would be fixed via firmware update, and I wonder why we haven't seen that. If there is a switch/touch sensor in the center of the yoke it should have been trivial to implement. Unless there is no there there.

 

[uscbucsfan]

Elon tweeted in March 2021 that this would be fixed via firmware update, and I wonder why we haven't seen that. If there is a switch/touch sensor in the center of the yoke it should have been trivial to implement. Unless there is no there there.

He was lying. My car was made February 2022 and according to the service tech the other day, it doesn't have the ability to engage a horn under the airbag.