TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

ReGen level shifter pedals for Model 3

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by emir-t, Nov 10, 2016.

Tags:
  1. emir-t

    emir-t Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Istanbul
    I really hope Tesla adds some kind of a ReGen control or Regen on demand mechanism on the Model 3. The new Chevy Bolt has a regen hand pedal as you know which enables you to come to a complete stop without using friction brakes. Also the new Hyundai Ioniq BEV and the old Mercedes B Class electric has a system that has regen levels and you can shift on the go.

    The way new Hyundai Ioniq implemented it is brilliant. There are pedals behind the both sides of the steering wheel like gear shifter pedals but they are regen levels. There's also a zero regen option allowing you to coast. Because as you know for maximum efficiency ideal should be zero braking and that includes regen. (since regen has losses)

    For example on a highway you might need coasting whereas in the city you can shift 3 times very fast and have very hard regen eliminating the need to use friction brakes. With the current EV I'm driving in order to coast I need to find that sweet spot on the accelarator.

    I wonder how much this system would add to efficiency but new Ioniq seems to be very efficient. Reports say 130miles real world is easy all season with just a 28kWh battery. Makes me think strong about a 55kWh Model 3 getting 215mi easily.

    I really hope the Model 3 gets this. Regen is my favorite thing about EVs and I had no idea when getting into this that this would be my absolute favorite. Shifting levels would make it that much more fun to drive. What do you guys think?
     
    • Disagree x 5
    • Like x 3
  2. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    5,809
    Location:
    Maine
    I guess you've just been watching Fully Charged. ;)

    There have been discussions about this before here on TMC. My wife and I want different things from the pedals, and added to my experience driving in different locations it suggests to me that until we're all in self-driving cars, there should be a continuum, with options.
     
  3. Jayc

    Jayc Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Messages:
    574
    Location:
    UK
    #3 Jayc, Nov 10, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
    I'd go full regen and get used to it rather than toning it down and not learning to handle it. More miles, less wear on brakes, what's not to like in regen? BTW I don't see why anyone would want to coast, I think it is a very bad idea to free wheel with no control. The ability to have your accelerator pedal do regen + acceleration makes for the sort of simplicity that only EVs can do. IMO more gears & levers just complicates things and so would be a backwards move.
     
    • Like x 10
    • Disagree x 1
  4. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    3,218
    Location:
    Slovenia, Europe
    They will add exactly the same ReGen controll as there already exist in Roadster, Model S and Model X.
    Regen is foot controlled, the more you press there accelerator, less regen there is. In the end it turns around and starts accelerating.
     
    • Like x 4
    • Informative x 1
  5. Jason Bourne

    Jason Bourne Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    360
    Location:
    Philly
    Interesting idea, I'd be willing to entertain it. I've never owned a BEV, so I don't yet know whether I'll like having regen on for daily driving. I can always turn it on and off. But having a way to adjust the level of regen on the fly sounds interesting.

    BTW, it took me a while to realize that when you say pedals, you mean paddles.
     
    • Like x 1
  6. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    5,369
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    Full regen is better for safety, in my opinion, in addition to overall efficiency. The only reason for the option to tone it down is probably for gasoline converts who are used to super narrow power bands and multiple gears.
     
    • Like x 2
  7. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    4,906
    Location:
    Delaware
    I'm perfectly happy with the current arrangement and feathering the accelerator to coast.

    Having said that, one of the benefits of driving the computer car is customizability - I have no problem with them giving you extra options with a paddle and the ability to set it up that way. I might even like it (haven't driven a paddle regen car, so it's possible.)

    The paddle could also have an option to toggle Ludicrous/Insane mode instead, or some other driving options.
     
    • Like x 1
  8. emir-t

    emir-t Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Istanbul
    #8 emir-t, Nov 10, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
    Overall efficiency ideally would be better with zero brakes. It is better to sometimes coast and use gravity and drag to slow down than regen with losses. Regen should be replacing friction brakes and should be used only when you just have to brake. Of course friction brake usage should be 'zero' in this scenario.

    Having full regen when you let go makes you regen unnecessarily sometimes where you'd be better of coasting.

    Yep, my bad. Not native tongue sorry.

    I don't think you got the point. I'm not talking about me not handling regen or not getting used to it. In fact I said it is my favorite thing.

    What I'm suggesting is instead of a fixed regen rate you could adjust levels on the go easily. That way you don't have to use brakes for the final 10% of the stop or when you suddenly have to brake. You can make regen 'very high' and come to a complete stop without the need for friction. And for those times it is better off to coast efficiency wise, allowing the car to coast when you let go is more efficient. In no way you are not in control.

    With a fixed regen rate when you let go of the pedal you inevitably regen unnecessarily. Roundtrip efficiency of regen is around 60-70% so there is losses. Especially when climbing hills I turn regen off. Why waste my speed 'regenning uphill' when traffic slows down while gravity can do it for me. What I'm suggesting is essentially better for efficiency and gives everyone an option for their individual taste. It would make driving really fun for me as I'd be fiddling actively with regen levels whereas an EV newbie could want zero regen, you could still have your taste of fixed regen and everyone is happy. Since it is all software controlled it doesn't add any complexity.

    I indeed have been and I urge anyone to see it to understand better what I'm talking about and see it in action. Follow me.
     
    • Like x 3
  9. cmorgan

    cmorgan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I had a chance to sit in a Chevy Volt recently and when the sales guy mentioned the regen pedal by the steering wheel I was surprised. What would compel them to not use the existing control interface of brake/accelerator and decide they needed a brand new pedal? Its so natural when driving say a Honda Insight, a Prius, a Tesla, VW e-Golf, etc....

    Imo the way Tesla does it now is excellent. You want regen? Stop pressing the accelerator. Some regen? Lightly press the accelerator. Want lots of regen and to come to a full stop? Press the brake pedal lightly and increase pressure as you approach the point at which you want to stop.

    The idea of adding an additional steering wheel pedal, or two, seems a LOT more complicated. Do I have to press the brake slightly and pull one of the levers if I want to slow down more? What if I forget?
     
    • Like x 4
    • Disagree x 1
  10. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2016
    Messages:
    5,369
    Location:
    Indianapolis
    This is the most common argument but it's inherently flawed.
    • You can hit the accelerator pedal in a way to negate regen, yet not use more energy if going down a hill. So hills are already covered with full regen.
    • Second, the majority of use cases of regen are city driving: starts/stops. In this case coasting is never better than regen.
     
  11. emir-t

    emir-t Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Istanbul
    What about speeds above 45mph? Highway speeds? When you're crusing along 60-70mph on the highway and you see cars in front of you slowing down a tiny bit you wouldn't want to regen, lose momentum (regain ~70%) and accelarate again using energy. Instead you can just coast. That makes sense especially if you're climbing at 45mph +.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Disagree x 1
  12. cmorgan

    cmorgan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I typically reduce pressure on the accelerator slightly in order to adjust speed. It likely means that there is some energy lost due to acceleration or regen being applied ever so slightly vs. a true coast, but it's easy to do and only requires the accelerator pedal to be used.
     
    • Like x 1
  13. jonnyg

    jonnyg Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Messages:
    234
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I've never driven a Tesla, just my Leaf, but this is how I feel as well.

    I wish the Leaf had more regen, but I don't really want an extra paddle to make this happen. It has 2 modes, D which is more like driving a gas car, and B which is more regen but still has creep. I'd be fine with 2 modes, where D will let you coast, but with the B mode being heavier regen and no creep. And no extra paddle to deal with.
     
  14. emir-t

    emir-t Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Istanbul
    Thing is; we're on the same boat. I also love it now. I just think it could be improved but still think it's great as is. Even with the addition of padddles I suggest you can keep using it the way you are. Here's my ideal;

    - Single mode of "D". You can enable or turn off creep from the touchscreen.
    - There are paddle shifters that change regen toughness. 0 through 5. 0 is coasting, (for when you want to on hwy and ramps and for EV newbies) 5 is sort of like slamming on the brakes. Keep it at 3 and never touch it all your life if you want. You can still adjust it with your foot the way you are now. Just the 'let go' regen level changes.

    How many times do you cruise 60mph and someone slams on the brakes, making you hate yourself to use friction? Instead just shift to 5. Or when you're curising 75-80mph on the highway and you see traffic slowing down every so slightly reducing the distance between you and the car in front, instead of hesitating and releasing pressure a bit, regenning and losing energy, shift to "0" when you hit the hwy to coast.

    IDK just my 0.02$
     
    • Love x 1
  15. Twiglett

    Twiglett Single pedal driver

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    1,156
    Location:
    Austin
    Leave the Tesla system alone - if anyone really likes the Chevy system, go buy a Chevy.
    Don't ask Tesla to start using the Chevy system - simple market driven strategy.
    Adding extra buttons to do specific things isn't the Tesla way and that isn't likely to change - especially when Tesla customers like the way it is.
    Just ask yourself - what is the likelihood of Tesla adding more buttons for anything :)
     
    • Love x 3
    • Like x 2
    • Disagree x 2
  16. S3XY

    S3XY Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2015
    Messages:
    797
    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I don't understand how having paddles for different levels of regen would make driving more fun. I've never driven a standard transmission but to me regen paddles would be like downshifting. I doubt that is the fun part part of driving a standard.
     
  17. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Maine
    Regardless of the control mechanism, there should be a way of going from zero regen, to the strongest regen that the system can take. It would be nice if there was a simple feedback system that let the driver know where they are on the continuum.

    My concern with a 'all go pedal' version is that strongest regen may be (or become) so strong that if you foot slips off the pedal, it would be disconcertingly strong braking.

    There presumably will be a multiple function control on the steering wheel, like there is on the Model S/X. No reason I can see that that couldn't be tasked to control regen strength.

    I tweeted Elon asking for it, but got no response (not that I expected one).

    Thank you kindly.
     
    • Like x 2
  18. Topher

    Topher Energy Curmudgeon

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Maine
    Downshifting is an awesome part of the fun of driving a standard! Particularly when double clutching.

    I don't think regen paddles are analogous, but coasting perfectly also has its rewards.

    Thank you kindly.
     
    • Like x 1
  19. Candleflame

    Candleflame Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Messages:
    476
    Location:
    QLD, Australia
    This.

    There is no reason to have a seperate lever/pedal.
     
  20. dsvick

    dsvick Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2016
    Messages:
    1,489
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Ok, here is my question. Prefaced by - I don't have nor have I ever driven an electric vehicle with regen. I use cruise control quite a lot in my ICE car right now. In city driving I do a lot of coasting coming up to stop lights and intersections. I can see where I would stop doing that since I'm doing it to save fuel and replacing coasting with regen would have the same effect.

    For highway driving though I often find that I cancel cruise control for brief periods of time and just coast to reduce speed slightly without having to use the brakes. Then I'll resume cruise, all without having to have my feet touch the pedals. Assuming no AP2, how would you accomplish this or its equivalent driving a Tesla? Would I have to just cancel regen while on the highway? Or would I have to disengage cruise control and move my foot to the accelerator at the same time? Or does Tesla cruise control have a coast function?
     

Share This Page