ReGen level shifter pedals for Model 3

[JeffK]

No that's not how physics work.

See when coasting you just stop applying any force to the object be it accelarating or decelarating forces. You allow it to coast. Only forces acting are drag and gravity. Eventually it stops and you've covered all the distance you could with your speed in those conditions. No energy lost. 100% efficient. (Disregarding drag and gravity ofc)

However when braking. Whether friction or regenative. You are losing energy of some sort.

First scenario is not possible in the real world (as you've admitted) and the braking scenario is more in line with the OPs usage of "coasting" to decelerate so yes, this is how physics works.
So you're agreeing with me that energy is lost and nothing is regained through regen.

Many people seem to be confusing engine braking in an automatic in high gear with actual coasting (which you'd have to be in neutral).

As mentioned several times now the engine braking and regen of all levels can be achieved through foot position.... With the exception that you cannot regen at a level higher than the vehicle is capable of. Paddles are not necessary at all.

Very few people actually put the car into neutral to coast. In many vehicles it is wasteful and dangerous.

 

[Topher]

Until you consider that the engine (in an ICE) is still running even when you're coasting. But I get your point. thanks.

Sure, if your car is broken... what do you mean everyone's car engine doesn't shut down when it isn't being used?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Topher]

To slow down you can either regain energy or lose it. In this instance coasting is 0% efficient.

Nope. Coasting is conversion of kinetic energy (and potential energy if you are on a hill) into displacement in the most efficient way possible in a car.

Many people seem to be confusing engine braking in an automatic in high gear with actual coasting (which you'd have to be in neutral).

I honestly think you are the only one with that confusion. I am speaking of actual coasting. It is my impression that others are as well (though I could be mistaken).

Thank you kindly.

 

[JeffK]

Nope. Coasting is conversion of kinetic energy (and potential energy if you are on a hill) into displacement in the most efficient way possible in a car.

I honestly think you are the only one with that confusion. I am speaking of actual coasting. It is my impression that others are as well (though I could be mistaken).

Thank you kindly.

Topher, I think you are missing the premise in that we are talking about slowing down.

Coasting is not efficient. You don't have to believe me. You can actually by a device to scan your own car or hook up an oscilloscope to your fuel injectors. In "actual coasting (neutral)", an ICE is idling and using more fuel than simply letting your foot off the gas while in gear and letting the car engine brake naturally. Believing that somehow throwing your car into neutral is actually beneficial is an old wives' tale not based in fact or the mechanics of an actual car. (If you wanted to save the wasted gas you'd have to throw it in neutral and actually shut off the engine.)

In the act of slowing down you have two choices throw away energy via (engine braking, friction braking, coasting in neutral while drag and friction slow you down and wasting gasoline in the process) or in the case of an EV you can actually store a portion of the energy you would otherwise lose.

Regen is a no brainer.

The notion that on a flat road coasting to a stop sign is better than regen or even engine braking is crazy. Same applies to slowing down on a highway, etc.

If you really think coasting to slow down is so efficient then maybe you should convince EV manufacturers to have no regen at all...

Forgive me, I'm passionate for regen and engine braking... so much fun!

 

[johnr]

When I want to coast or give my foot a short break I simply shift into neutral. Then shift back into drive when ready. My EV has the shifter in the center between the seats but it's even easier to do this with a Tesla Model S as the shifter is by the steering wheel. That's almost the same as having paddles because it's within instant reach of the fingers. However everyone has their individual preference and having owned two EVs over the past 5 years I happen to agree with the OP - I prefer having zero regen off-pedal while cruising. That said, with Tesla's shifter right there by the steering wheel and with cruise control it's not a big deal. However they do it, I expect access to switch from neutral to full regen will be as readily accessible on the Model 3 as it is on the Model S, and that's fine with me

 

[AustinPowers]

I guess you've just been watching Fully Charged.

That was my first thought too, especially as I had also just yesterday watched Bob's review of the Ioniq.

I don't understand though why the OP gets three dislikes for his post. I agree with him as well as Bob that such a feature would be really great.

Perhaps for those that would like such shifter paddles to perform some other function, perhaps it could be software adjustable.

 

[AustinPowers]

I'd go full regen and get used to it rather than toning it down and not learning to handle it. More miles, less wear on brakes, what's not to like in regen? BTW I don't see why anyone would want to coast, I think it is a very bad idea to free wheel with no control.

Who says anything about no control?
Coasting is great, when I test-drove the e-Golf it was one of the best features. A lot of models of cars, even ICE's, offer coasting ability. Even our 2011 Touran has this and it helps a lot with fuel economy, especially on Autobahn travel.

 

[AustinPowers]

They will add exactly the same ReGen controll as there already exist in Roadster, Model S and Model X.
Regen is foot controlled, the more you press there accelerator, less regen there is. In the end it turns around and starts accelerating.

???
I think you just don't get what the advantage of coasting is. Imagine the following situation (this happens daily on my commute as well as any other drive):
You leave your town (speed limit 50 kph) and accelerate to the speed limit of the open country road (100 kph). The terrain is flat. With our Touran or the e-Golf I tested I would press the accelerator until I hit 100 kph, then let go of the pedal completely. Those two cars (as well as the B-Class ED or the Ioniq BEV on the regen off setting) would then coast along at 100 kph for a long time without losing much speed, even longer if the terrain has slight downward stretches in between. This can mean amazingly long stretches can be driven without using the accelerator at all, thus saving energy. Now say the terrain changes to downhill, or you enter another town. With those regen adjustment paddles you simply set the regen to a higher level and voila, one pedal driving as you describe on your command.
I always bugged me on my Model S test drives, that I had no such possibility. As soon as I lifted my foot from the pedal, regen kicked in, whether useful or not. Those coasting drives I described above would not have been possible, meaning I would have had to drain the battery more than necessary. Think about it, regen under normal conditions can only give you back part of what you have taken out. If you don't take the energy out in the first place due to coasting, you don't have to put it back in again later.
I can fully understand Bob Llewellyns enthusiasm about that feature, which he displayed both in the Ioniq review as well as that of the B-Class ED. And don't forget he drives a Model S as his standard car, so he surely knows what he is comparing. And no, I am not calling you Shirley

 

[AustinPowers]

Imo the way Tesla does it now is excellent. You want regen? Stop pressing the accelerator. Some regen? Lightly press the accelerator. Want lots of regen and to come to a full stop? Press the brake pedal lightly and increase pressure as you approach the point at which you want to stop.

The idea of adding an additional steering wheel pedal, or two, seems a LOT more complicated. Do I have to press the brake slightly and pull one of the levers if I want to slow down more? What if I forget?

Like emir-t I suggest you watch the Fully Charged video to understand what we mean. You all seem to not understand what the advantages of coasting are.

 

[AustinPowers]

I don't understand how having paddles for different levels of regen would make driving more fun. I've never driven a standard transmission but to me regen paddles would be like downshifting. I doubt that is the fun part part of driving a standard.

I think that is part of the reason why you don't understand what we mean. Someone who is used to only driving automatic doesn't know the coasting effect at all.

And it is not about making things more complicated, on the contrary. Those paddles like in the B-class or the Ioniq are incredibly easy to use. What's not to like?

 

[AustinPowers]

I typically reduce pressure on the accelerator slightly in order to adjust speed. It likely means that there is some energy lost due to acceleration or regen being applied ever so slightly vs. a true coast, but it's easy to do and only requires the accelerator pedal to be used.

It is not about reducing speed. Coasting is about maintaining speed without using any energy.

 

[AustinPowers]

Topher, I think you are missing the premise in that we are talking about slowing down.

That is your misconception. The OP wasn't talking about slowing down, but about coasting as Topher said.

Why is it so hard to understand that such paddles would offer a comfortable and extremely easy to use way to adjust the regen level from zero to max?

I have test driven several BEVs. I still intend to test drive the Ioniq and the B-Class.
But I have driven both an e-Golf, which can coast, but doesn't have such a nice way for adjustment like the Ioniq or the B-Class, and a Model S (2013 and 2016 model), which can't coast - or at least has no easy to use way of doing so.
Perhaps one has to be used to stick-shift driving over here in order to appreciate the value of coasting, even in a BEV.

The notion that on a flat road coasting to a stop sign is better than regen or even engine braking is crazy. Same applies to slowing down on a highway, etc.

If you really think coasting to slow down is so efficient then maybe you should convince EV manufacturers to have no regen at all...

The only crazy thing is your answer, which again shows you seem to not have a clue about what the OP, Topher, Bob (in the FC video), myself, etc. mean by our arguments, plus you seem to not have experienced the coasting we are talking about. Just look at the scenario I described in my post above and try to understand. In a Tesla, that scenario is just not possible, at least not without some strenuous foot magic. In cars like the B-Class, Ioniq, etc. it's a simple klick on the paddle, nothing else required. And you can still use the regen mode of your choice, any time you like. What could be more comfortable and easy to use? Remember, even Tesla is not perfect, there is always room for improvement. I know, for some such comments are bordering on heresy, but so what.

 

[JeffK]

That is your misconception. The OP wasn't talking about slowing down, but about coasting as Topher said.

Why is it so hard to understand that such paddles would offer a comfortable and extremely easy to use way to adjust the regen level from zero to max?

I have test driven several BEVs. I still intend to test drive the Ioniq and the B-Class.
But I have driven both an e-Golf, which can coast, but doesn't have such a nice way for adjustment like the Ioniq or the B-Class, and a Model S (2013 and 2016 model), which can't coast - or at least has no easy to use way of doing so.
Perhaps one has to be used to stick-shift driving over here in order to appreciate the value of coasting, even in a BEV.



The only crazy thing is your answer, which again shows you seem to not have a clue about what the OP, Topher, Bob (in the FC video), myself, etc. mean by our arguments, plus you seem to not have experienced the coasting we are talking about. Just look at the scenario I described in my post above and try to understand. In a Tesla, that scenario is just not possible, at least not without some strenuous foot magic. In cars like the B-Class, Ioniq, etc. it's a simple klick on the paddle, nothing else required. And you can still use the regen mode of your choice, any time you like. What could be more comfortable and easy to use? Remember, even Tesla is not perfect, there is always room for improvement. I know, for some such comments are bordering on heresy, but so what.

You can read it yourself instead of blindly hiting dislike on a factually accurate post:

What about speeds above 45mph? Highway speeds? When you're crusing along 60-70mph on the highway and you see cars in front of you slowing down a tiny bit you wouldn't want to regen, lose momentum (regain ~70%) and accelarate again using energy. Instead you can just coast. That makes sense especially if you're climbing at 45mph +.

As a matter of fact you hit like on the very same post...
He's suggesting "coasting" instead of slightly letting off the accelerator causing only a small amount of regen, if that, and allowing "coasting" without additional energy use. You don't need paddles even in an ICE you need nothing other than your foot. Absolutely no need to go to neutral.

If you think you might need to slow down then use regen, if you don't need as much regen don't lift your foot as high. It's not rocket science.

I always bugged me on my Model S test drives, that I had no such possibility. As soon as I lifted my foot from the pedal, regen kicked in, whether useful or not.

The answer is to not fully remove your foot... Same applies in ALL cars, ICEs, EVs, both manual and automatic.

Also, if you lift your foot off the pedal in an ICE you are engine braking not coasting. I can understand the confusion as in a high gear it may "feel" like you're coasting... but you're not. In an EV using an AC induction motor then you can simply let off the accelerator slightly to decelerate with slight regen or keep your foot where it is or slightly higher to coast (with no additional energy use).

When people keep that geared ICE mentality they want a slight regen just like the slight engine braking they were used to in a high geared ICE (it's not "coasting"). In an EV, they can get slight regen and even actual coasting simply with proper footwork, again no paddles needed.

 

[dsvick]

In a Tesla with TACC (or EAP), all you do is sit there. It will modulate its speed to keep a user-set following distance from the car in front. There's no need for any extra buttons, dials, paddles, or even thought.

Simple enough?

Yes, I realize that, in my original post though I said without AP.

 

[dsvick]

For this exact case (when I want to catch a gap that would be closed if I waited until I was up on the car in front of me), I flick off cruise, slow down, change lanes, then resume cruise. It's pretty much just like in a gas car -- all one smooth motion. If I don't want hard regen, instead of turning off cruise, I'll flick it down by 5mph with a single motion (a half-flick adjusts by 1mph, a full flick to the next multiple of 5mph). If I need more precise control, I turn it off, and have my foot ready on the pedal to control it. Overall I feel like Tesla has much better drive-by-hand because the cruise control is so much more precise, and with TACC the instances where I need to turn it off are far more rare. Seriously... sometimes I forget I had it on when I turn out of traffic and suddenly my car wants to go a lot faster!

Thanks, that is exactly the answer I was looking for. I was hoping for a solution that didn't involve switching regen modes all the time or having to put my foot on the accelerator either. It sounds like the Tesla cruise control will work just fine. In my current car, each flick of the cruise stalk only changes the speed by about a half mile per hour. So, on the highway when I need to slow down several miles per hour it was easier to take it out of cruise (instead of flicking the stalk repeatedly), it would slow down fairly quickly then I could change lanes and resume my original speed. If I can do 5mph changes with the Tesla that should be perfect and let me avoid the hard regen of turning it off completely.

For everyone that mentioned AP, I know that that would solve the problem as well, I'm just not sure if I'll be getting it, with the price increase I'll need to consider it and compare it to other options.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Nope. Coasting is conversion of kinetic energy (and potential energy if you are on a hill) into displacement in the most efficient way possible in a car.



I honestly think you are the only one with that confusion. I am speaking of actual coasting. It is my impression that others are as well (though I could be mistaken).

Thank you kindly.

Hypermilers differentiate between coasting and gliding.
Coasting implies being in gear, having drivetrain drag/regen.
Gliding implies being in neutral, or in a hybrid having zero regen and the engine not burning fuel, or in a BEV having zero regen.

I presume you're referring to gliding.

 

[Topher]

You don't have to believe me.

It isn't a matter of 'believing' you. It is a matter of evidence.

Since this is a Tesla forum, let's dispense with any reference to ICE cars for this discussion. Coasting (that is non-powered, non-regen driving) is the most energy efficient movement. Try it on a bicycle if you need empirical evidence.

I presume you're referring to gliding.

If you prefer that nomemclature, sure. But I don't think that is the communication disconnect we are having here.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Topher]

Is there any reason that Tesla can't have both pedal and paddle?

If we think of cruise control (old fashioned), that is simply a way to control speed with a few adjustments with your hand instead of continuous fine control with your foot. I fail to see how a paddle controlling regen isn't exactly analogous, and thus could be useful to some people.

Thank you kindly.

 

[JeffK]

As Tesla heads toward an even simple interior setup, I'm betting we'll never see regen paddles in a Tesla.

 

[JeffK]

Hypermilers differentiate between coasting and gliding.
Coasting implies being in gear, having drivetrain drag/regen.
Gliding implies being in neutral, or in a hybrid having zero regen and the engine not burning fuel, or in a BEV having zero regen.

I presume you're referring to gliding.

Your gliding is the definition of coasting and your coasting is engine breaking in a pure ICE.

Hybrids and EVs tend to confound things due to the abilities of electric motors.