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regenerative braking poll

Do you use Low or Standard regenerative braking?

  • Low (mostly or always)

    Votes: 3 1.2%
  • Standard (mostly or always)

    Votes: 236 97.1%
  • Depends on driving conditions

    Votes: 4 1.6%

  • Total voters
    243
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And I agree that you can work to find the sweet spot to allow the car to coast, but it's harder than it needs to be.

This is a subtle question and it might not make sense at first, but here goes...

Why do you want to "coast"? I think that is the issue right there.

"Coasting" is simply one point on an infinitely variable scale of forward force that starts with "holy crap my eyeballs are crushing my brain" and ends with "I'm being held back by my seat belt" and the fact that one point in that spectrum happens to map to "no power is flowing from the batteries to the motors" is irrelevant.

When you think about "the sweet spot" on the pedal and "coasting" vs "regen braking" vs "accelerating", then your brain is actively focused on the wrong thing - the mechanism itself and the state of the system rather than where it should be focused - which is the driving environment.

Instead you should be considering closing speeds and how quickly you will arrive at a point where you might need to stop, or not want to stop, or where you may want to still be retaining some of your speed. Think of where you want to go and how fast. Think "closing too fast" or "no longer closing fast enough" and your foot will do the right thing without having to worry about where the "coasting sweep spot" is. You should never be thinking about coasting or regen, you should be thinking about lane position and following distance and thinking ahead to how the next 10-20 seconds of forward progress will work out compared to the traffic conditions.

This is a little easier to get the hang of if you have a long hill with a stop sign at the top (there is a great one here in SF on 17th headed up towards Twin Peaks with a fair bit of cross traffic at times). Don't think of where you want to switch between regen/coast/acceleration modes, think of how the cars are progressing through the intersection and how you are tracking them. In this case you will be varying the amount of motive force up the hill constantly, but it will always be an application of power - this example will never end up in the "coasting" state.

But the thing is, your brain doesn't need to conceive of "coasting state" or the uphill equivalent thereof - your brain only has to worry about how quickly you are pushing the car up the hill. Eventually you should get good enough to progress smoothly up the hill with little variation in speed and, if necessary, be able to hold it in a stationary position easily with your foot on the accelerator. In this experiment your brain isn't calculating "what is the appropriate amount of power to hold the car still on this hill and where is that position for the accelerator and when is my foot exactly in that spot", rather your brain is thinking "am I moving forward or not and am I getting closer to the car in front or not" and your foot will magically do the right thing. That is the only thought you should be having and your brain is actually well designed by evolution to do just that.

After getting used to that, the level road equivalent is pretty much exactly the same thing, it just so happens that the range of pedal positions your internal feedback loop will use to control forward progress and traffic positioning will happen to include a spot that is characterized as "coasting" if you analyze the power flow in the system - but you don't need to be thinking about what is going on in the system, or even aware of it - just think of how close that car is getting to you and whether you are happy with that...
 
Would it be feasible for Tesla to offer a user configuration setting to give the option of regen on the accelerator (like it is today) or brake paddle? If both the brake and accelerator areelectrically actuated paddles then it may be possible with just software. Or is that not possible without hardware change for some other reason?

I use standard and like it, but sometimes wonder what it would be like if regents was on the brake so I can easily coast.
 
Would it be feasible for Tesla to offer a user configuration setting to give the option of regen on the accelerator (like it is today) or brake paddle? If both the brake and accelerator areelectrically actuated paddles then it may be possible with just software. Or is that not possible without hardware change for some other reason?

I use standard and like it, but sometimes wonder what it would be like if regents was on the brake so I can easily coast.

Tesla's hardware isn't set up to handle regen on the brake pedal. That requires a dead zone at the top of the brake pedal where the friction brakes aren't engaged and some sort of artificial feedback actuator to provide "brake feel" during regen.

So far, no one has managed to make that feel natural - they all seem uneven and unresponsive in my experience though they've gotten a little better over time.

That's why Tesla and BMW chose not to do it - they have tight, natural brake pedals with good response. All the Autopilot Teslas have the pedal hooked directly to the master cylinder piston just like an unboosted brake system, for maximum brake feel (and an electric motor also geared to the piston which provides the brake boost and applies the brakes automatically when the car needs to.)

It's a unique feeling when the car pulls the brake pedal down underneath your foot...

One benefit of the Tesla/BMW approach is that you always know when you're using regen and when it's the brake pads (except in TACC/AP); with my Volt I was always trying to figure out what point in the brake pedal was the transition from regen to friction. I thought I figured it out, but to this day I'm not positive if I got it right.
 
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If I was to design a blended brake paddle, I would make the 1st inch enable regen and have a completely different and lighter feel, with a distinct change in feel and increased resistance for the next 3 inch which activate friction brakes so there is little doubt that you are using regen or friction brake. The dash energy graph should also indicate when friction brakes are applied of course.

This won't be 1 paddle driving, but would make it pretty clear to select between friction or regen brake.
 
I've read in some of the other threads about squeaky brakes that it's wise to use Low for the first 1,000 to 2,000 miles of ownership to make sure the brake pads...er, do whatever breaking in is required. Then move up to Standard to reduce the likelihood of brake noise.

I wonder, did all the folks voting Standard start that way? If so, any issue with brake noise?

I ask because the X we took on a test drive a few months ago had horrendously loud brakes ESPECIALLY backing up (I have to back up into my driveway). I mean it was ungodly loud and pulling in after 10 at night would not be neighborly...
 
I've read in some of the other threads about squeaky brakes that it's wise to use Low for the first 1,000 to 2,000 miles of ownership to make sure the brake pads...er, do whatever breaking in is required. Then move up to Standard to reduce the likelihood of brake noise.

I wonder, did all the folks voting Standard start that way? If so, any issue with brake noise?

I ask because the X we took on a test drive a few months ago had horrendously loud brakes ESPECIALLY backing up (I have to back up into my driveway). I mean it was ungodly loud and pulling in after 10 at night would not be neighborly...

Had no problems with brake noises. We started with Standard and never changed. That being said, we do live somewhere there are significant elevation changes and have to use our brakes.
 
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When people say that stepping on the brakes saps energy, I wonder what happens if regen brakes then? Is that not the same? When I lift my leg off the accelerator in regen mode, my brake lights come on which tells me that the brakes were applied. Having driven for so long, I know how to gently apply my brakes in LOW mode and not step on it abruptly. I think LOW is way better than REGEN
 
When people say that stepping on the brakes saps energy, I wonder what happens if regen brakes then? Is that not the same? When I lift my leg off the accelerator in regen mode, my brake lights come on which tells me that the brakes were applied. Having driven for so long, I know how to gently apply my brakes in LOW mode and not step on it abruptly. I think LOW is way better than REGEN

A pretty good description of how regenerative braking works vs. regular brakes:

How do regenerative brakes work?

My understanding of why the brake lights come on when you let go of the accelerator and regen kicks in is the software is designed to recognize the rate of change of the car's speed. So a sudden drop in speed will tell the car to kick in the brake-lights, even though you are not using the actual brakes.
 
A pretty good description of how regenerative braking works vs. regular brakes:

How do regenerative brakes work?

My understanding of why the brake lights come on when you let go of the accelerator and regen kicks in is the software is designed to recognize the rate of change of the car's speed. So a sudden drop in speed will tell the car to kick in the brake-lights, even though you are not using the actual brakes.

Thanks a lot for the link. Quite informative
 
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I operate regen on Standard Mode and the only time I have an issue with it is when I have fully charged my X to 100% and regen does not employ. I have cabin in the mountains and it is about ALL downhill, if I have the car fully charged regen braking does not employ and I find having to use the actual break peddle to retard.. For the first 40 miles of the trip the X does not "use" any power.

The reason why I find it annoying and unsafe is that the behavior of the car changes and is inconsistent... I completely understand why regen does NOT work at 100%... It is that my driving expectations and reaction is different because the car is not regen braking like it does below 100%..

SO, I do NOT charge 100% when at the cabin and I avoid the situation. I am trainable...lol
 
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Lots of interesting feedback here. The poll so far completely blows me away, almost all votes for Standard. I'm going to try Standard regen tomorrow, see if I can stomach it.

The thing is, minimal regen (low) braking seems to mimic all the driving I've done in the past, and feels very natural and intuitive. With Standard, I have to keep adjusting the accelerator to maintain my desired speed, it's like I'm driving a stick in 2nd gear all the time. But again, I'll try it again tomorrow, and see if there's something I've been missing or can get used to.

I think the part that's hard to get used-to is that you feel like you're "feeding gas" when approaching a red light as you feather the pedal to adjust the amount of regen. Once you realize that the meter is in the green and you're still charging the battery even while pressing the pedal, it starts to make sense.

The only need for light regen, in my opinion, is for test drives where the driver never drove an EV before. Otherwise, why not use the pedal to adjust the amount you want?
 
When people say that stepping on the brakes saps energy, I wonder what happens if regen brakes then? Is that not the same? When I lift my leg off the accelerator in regen mode, my brake lights come on which tells me that the brakes were applied. Having driven for so long, I know how to gently apply my brakes in LOW mode and not step on it abruptly. I think LOW is way better than REGEN

Not at all.... the brake lights come on based on deceleration rate of the car to alert drivers behind you so you don't get rear-ended. Regen braking slows the car down by configuring the inverter to your motors such that you motors now turn into generators. That slowing down is the resistance of the generator dumping energy into a load (your battery).

Also, LOW is way "worse" than standard regen (worse is subjective here) because the slowing of your car is done by pressing two metal pads together, which converts the rotational motion of your rotor into heat. All that energy you expended from your battery is now wasted rather than recaptured. Your range then also suffers because you are converting the momentum of your car back into usable electrical energy. Not to mention that your brakes will wear much faster. You will be replacing brake pads and turning rotors about 40-50 thousand miles (if not sooner, Tesla's are heavy cars), where as I have heard that it is common for Model S (using standard regen) to reach 90K or more before needing brake work.
 
I've read in some of the other threads about squeaky brakes that it's wise to use Low for the first 1,000 to 2,000 miles of ownership to make sure the brake pads...er, do whatever breaking in is required. Then move up to Standard to reduce the likelihood of brake noise.

I wonder, did all the folks voting Standard start that way? If so, any issue with brake noise?

I ask because the X we took on a test drive a few months ago had horrendously loud brakes ESPECIALLY backing up (I have to back up into my driveway). I mean it was ungodly loud and pulling in after 10 at night would not be neighborly...

This makes some sense..... had not thought of that. It takes a couple of thousand miles after new pads for the pads/rotor to 'surface' themselves on ICE cars. Hmmmm, interesting.
 
One can bed brakes in less then 10 miles but there are safety caveats. Do this only on empty roads where the speeds used can be handled safely. That said, this method of bedding the brakes does a much better job of mating of pads and rotors compared to driving normally for thousands of miles.

Bedding In Brake Rotors

On regenerative braking, Tesla got it right but it's clear there is a minority of drivers who can't make the adjustment or will struggle with it long term. It's easy to understand why. The pilot is trained to treat power as a one-way input and it looks like that's such a tough mindset to shake that there is trouble understanding the one peddle concept and regeneration entirely. The other driver uses the gas pedal as a on/off switch and hasn't developed experience with modulating throttle and holding it in one spot. That's the reason for the standard vs low setting and creep on/off. It is there to replicate the ICE driving experience albeit at the expense of efficiency.

There's clearly also a minority of drivers who have take to one-pedal driving like fish to water. They're asking for even stronger regenerative braking options. The suggestion to have an infinite slider, with one tweak to the idea, to set regenerative braking is a great idea. The tweak would be similar to how tesla handles setting charge limits. Have a few major "detents" in the slider setting but allow people to fine tune if they so wish.

That's a great way to satisfy a broad range of drivers and only serves to increase overall satisfaction of the car since this is the kind of personalization that delivers a benefit every second one is driving the car.
 
When people say that stepping on the brakes saps energy, I wonder what happens if regen brakes then? Is that not the same? When I lift my leg off the accelerator in regen mode, my brake lights come on which tells me that the brakes were applied. Having driven for so long, I know how to gently apply my brakes in LOW mode and not step on it abruptly. I think LOW is way better than REGEN

I see you just joined TMC. Did you recently get the car? If so I highly recommend trying standard regen for a good while before leaving it on low. It takes a little getting used to but once you do, you won't look back. Kinda like jumping off the high dive board :)
When I first got my S I would change the setting to low on the highways because I didn't like how it would "brake" when all I wanted was to slow a little. Now I just feather the accelerator and it is so much easier, and natural now.
 
I see you just joined TMC. Did you recently get the car? If so I highly recommend trying standard regen for a good while before leaving it on low. It takes a little getting used to but once you do, you won't look back. Kinda like jumping off the high dive board :)
When I first got my S I would change the setting to low on the highways because I didn't like how it would "brake" when all I wanted was to slow a little. Now I just feather the accelerator and it is so much easier, and natural now.

That's one of the reasons I don't like the low option being there. New owners will quickly dismiss standard and use low without giving standard a chance. As you can see in the poll, those who give standard a chance, end up loving it.

The BMW i3 has full regen only (no low option). Both of my kids learned to drive on it and they are very good at using it.
 
I'm coming from an i3 and wish there was a "strong' regen option above standard. I really enjoyed the i3 regen setting that would bring you to full stop pretty quickly. I also appreciated how you could anticipate how much regen to use before the brake lights engaged so as not to spook drivers following closing. Each to their own I suppose.
 
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I operate regen on Standard Mode and the only time I have an issue with it is when I have fully charged my X to 100% and regen does not employ. I have cabin in the mountains and it is about ALL downhill, if I have the car fully charged regen braking does not employ and I find having to use the actual break peddle to retard.. For the first 40 miles of the trip the X does not "use" any power.

The reason why I find it annoying and unsafe is that the behavior of the car changes and is inconsistent... I completely understand why regen does NOT work at 100%... It is that my driving expectations and reaction is different because the car is not regen braking like it does below 100%..

SO, I do NOT charge 100% when at the cabin and I avoid the situation. I am trainable...lol

All very good points. I would not suggest charging to 100% regardless of where you are unless it is a long trip and you really need that extra margin of power. There are separate threads on this, so I don't go into detail here. Others have explained the reasoning and it is factual from a battery engineering perspective.