regenerative braking vs hard braking events for insurance companies

[winfield100]

I am trying to gather information. I have an OBDB recorder hooked to my datastream ostensibly to lower my insurance rates,.
I have a PHEV, not Tesla, but am getting a model 3 long range later this year

I drive 1 pedal driving exclusively, with high regeneration.
both 1,000+ mile trips and 5 mile trips.

My insurance company says i have 264 hard braking events in 10 months,
1-2, I can remember, but not the other 250+
Does the data stream have braking, accelerator and such?
Are my braking events a mis-interpretation of the data stream, perhaps lazy programmers with bad pseudocode that left out regenerative braking If driving an EV or PHEV.
It should be in the datastream somewhere.

 

[HankLloydRight]

That's about one event per day, so I doubt it's regen triggering it otherwise you'd probably have thousands of events. Although it might be using an internal accelerometer to measure braking and not the data stream.

I assert that people who claim they use '1 pedal driving exclusively' don't realize just how often one actually uses the brake pedal (at least in a Model S/X where regen does not bring you to a complete stop). It's an automatic/unconscious movement, so people only think they 'never use the brake pedal.'

And if the Model 3 is like the MS/MX, those OBDII readers won't work as the OBDII ports are neutered and not like an ICE or other PHEV car.

 

[winfield100]

That's about one event per day, so I doubt it's regen triggering it otherwise you'd probably have thousands of events. Although it might be using an internal accelerometer to measure braking and not the data stream.

I assert that people who claim they use '1 pedal driving exclusively' don't realize just how often one actually uses the brake pedal (at least in a Model S/X where regen does not bring you to a complete stop). It's an automatic/unconscious movement, so people only think they 'never use the brake pedal.'

And if the Model 3 is like the MS/MX, those OBDII readers won't work as the OBDII ports are neutered and not like an ICE or other PHEV car.

hmm, i get a lot of complaints from passengers about my "herky jerky" driving, "stop slowing down so fast". "all im doing is letting up on the accelerator" "drive _smoother_ then please"
I also drive almost exclusively on cruise control now and increment up and down speeds using the CC button, so it's almost 1/2-3/4 pedal driving.
anyway, thanks for comment.

 

[brkaus]

I don’t think the Tesla has anything useful on the OBDC port, per what I have read here. Do these devices have an accelerometer built in?

 

[HankLloydRight]

I don’t think the Tesla has anything useful on the OBDC port,

Unswitched +12v is pretty useful for installing accessories.

But that's all it offers.

 

[SM18]

Those devices are infamous for interpreting normal, arguably safer, braking as hard braking. Any deceleration quicker than 7mph/second.

What Every Driver Needs to Know about Progressive Snapshot

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

When my wife is driving her car and I suffer as her passenger, I think she is too slow on the throttle and too hard on the brakes, and way-way-way to frequent on the brakes. I threaten to hang a pendulum from her mirror to show how much herky-jerky she is doing. So I tested out my pendulum in my car when she was not there. I know I'm a very smooth driver and she is jerky, but the pendulum shows otherwise. Damn data.

 

[agloutney]

These insurance devices are in my opinion way too sensitive. I had a few “hard braking” events when using regen only. I had to turn it to low in order to stop these events. I even had a few “fast acceleration” events even though I was accelerating normally. You just have to drive like grandma in order to not trigger anything. The accelerometers also detect lateral motion so swerving around a pothole will set it off too. Although I’ve never been in an accident and consider myself a smooth efficient driver, using the device for six months was extremely frustrating. I suspect they are somewhat rigged such that you don’t get the maximum discount.

 

[BrettS]

hmm, i get a lot of complaints from passengers about my "herky jerky" driving, "stop slowing down so fast". "all im doing is letting up on the accelerator" "drive _smoother_ then please"

Maybe I’m just reading too much into your “conversation” here, but if you are just letting up on the accelerator, then you’re doing it wrong. Regen applies a decent amount of braking and if you just let the pedal go, especially after accelerating then it will be “herky jerky” and not a fun ride for your passengers. If you want to do the one pedal driving thing with standard regen then you need to slowly feather the accelerator back, just as you would slowly press the brake pedal in a standard car.

Think of the last bit of travel of the accelerator as you are letting it up as pressing the brake pedal. The faster you let up on the pedal the harder you are applying the brakes.

 

[winfield100]

Maybe I’m just reading too much into your “conversation” here, but if you are just letting up on the accelerator, then you’re doing it wrong. Regen applies a decent amount of braking and if you just let the pedal go, especially after accelerating then it will be “herky jerky” and not a fun ride for your passengers. If you want to do the one pedal driving thing with standard regen then you need to slowly feather the accelerator back, just as you would slowly press the brake pedal in a standard car.

Think of the last bit of travel of the accelerator as you are letting it up as pressing the brake pedal. The faster you let up on the pedal the harder you are applying the brakes.

feathering the accelerator seems, at least for me, a learned response. I'm more aware of when i'm going to feather than my passengers, which is one reason i try to not even use the accelerator but the cruise control button on long drives, smoother response.

The question here though, is the artifacts that are results of high regenerative driving versus hard braking and dings by insurance companies. I have about 1.3 million miles driving and know what hard braking is.

A very nice person in a reply above gave a link to the false positives that the insurance companies use

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

Maybe I’m just reading too much into your “conversation” here, but if you are just letting up on the accelerator, then you’re doing it wrong. Regen applies a decent amount of braking and if you just let the pedal go, especially after accelerating then it will be “herky jerky” and not a fun ride for your passengers. If you want to do the one pedal driving thing with standard regen then you need to slowly feather the accelerator back, just as you would slowly press the brake pedal in a standard car.

Think of the last bit of travel of the accelerator as you are letting it up as pressing the brake pedal. The faster you let up on the pedal the harder you are applying the brakes.

Ah-Hah...that what I'm missing. A feathering!! I move from Go to Stop pedals . I have been searching for the technique to engage regen and have only discovered crossing my ankles on long downhill runs. Now I have a new response to learn. Thanks guys!!

 

[BrettS]

feathering the accelerator seems, at least for me, a learned response. I'm more aware of when i'm going to feather than my passengers, which is one reason i try to not even use the accelerator but the cruise control button on long drives, smoother response.

It is a bit of an art, really. And there is definitely a learning curve.

The question here though, is the artifacts that are results of high regenerative driving versus hard braking and dings by insurance companies. I have about 1.3 million miles driving and know what hard braking is.

I think part of the question here is exactly what is “hard braking” as defined by your insurance company (or at least as defined by their device). As someone said earlier, 270 hard braking events sounds like a lot, but you said it was over 10 months and that equates to a bit less than 1 a day, so if the hard braking events are being triggered by regen it certainly isn’t being triggered every single time you regen. I suspect that it’s unrelated to regen and the device may define “hard braking” as something less than you do.

 

[winfield100]

It is a bit of an art, really. And there is definitely a learning curve.
I think part of the question here is exactly what is “hard braking” as defined by your insurance company (or at least as defined by their device). As someone said earlier, 270 hard braking events sounds like a lot, but you said it was over 10 months and that equates to a bit less than 1 a day, so if the hard braking events are being triggered by regen it certainly isn’t being triggered every single time you regen. I suspect that it’s unrelated to regen and the device may define “hard braking” as something less than you do.

my insurance company only wants to communicate on the phone, not in writing. I am quite hard of hearing and prefer "in writing"
I suspect a number of my hard braking events (i commute between SW Florida and Washington DC, about 1,000 miles) are on a short, 40mph stretch of road. i drive cruise control and at the exact same spot "tap" the brakes to engage high regen and slow to enter a "round-a-bout" then a hard right and a hard left. slowing from 40 to about 15 or slower w/o brakes then feather accelerator.

I'm about to dump the program as it is extremely intrusive. "we know where you are, how fast it took you to go from X to Y, exact times but we only care about hard braking, at present"

thanks for the answers, and the links above folks.

 

[winfield100]

a tiny update. the Volt was destroyed in El Paso, while stopped at a stoplight, about 8-10 seconds after stopping rear ended, still no model 3 or S yet
however a link to learning to drive with regen driving and rapid learning curve of 1 pedal driving.
I now have to worry about monitoring as am using forward facing radar and cruise control and high regen for 2/3 - 3/4 pedal driving

https://www.tu-chemnitz.de/hsw/psychologie/professuren/allpsy1/pdf/2013_Cocron et al_Regenerative_braking_in_EVs.pdf

and a note
the insurance company still argues that, so the monitor is in Texas and i am not
8mph/sec gravity = 0.3647 deceleration force = hard braking
10mph/sec gravity = 0.4559 deceleration force = extreme hard braking
(0-60 in 1 second is 2.7 gravity!, Yay, Killacycle)

(miles per hour) per second to Acceleration of gravity Conversion Table

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

My insurance company- USAA - has never asked me how hard I brake.

Can you elucidate a bit on what your company is asking- offering - to have this acceleration device?

I heard State Farm has some dongle that tells the company if you speed.
Don't know if it also has braking and turning features - but the promise is a 10% off premium if you behave.

 

[winfield100]

My insurance company- USAA - has never asked me how hard I brake.

Can you elucidate a bit on what your company is asking- offering - to have this acceleration device?

I heard State Farm has some dongle that tells the company if you speed.
Don't know if it also has braking and turning features - but the promise is a 10% off premium if you behave.

the dongle or whatever it's name is, that plugs in where they check stuff, measures acceleration, speed, etc
you are a "bad boy" if you ever go over 80 (5.3 miles out of 16,543 0.03%)
the total miles is monitored and what time you drive. I leave Florida for Washington DC and vice versa due to traffic flow, at 4am as it's a 16.3 hr drive and i'm refreshed, but that's "a bad time of night and a "no-no" Interstates I-75 and I-95 with posted speed limits of 70 and effective speed limits of 70-100+ (not me tho) and occasional greater than 120-130 by lunatics and police
gawd help you if you drive a lot of miles, all for a promise they "Might reduce your rates"
(mine went up for some unknown reason detailed below and unplugged it end of 2017 and got a lot of emails to plug back in)

 

[sorka]

feathering the accelerator seems, at least for me, a learned response.

I've mastered feathering Ludicrous Mode. Do you think I'd get a discount?

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

You buy a performance car, then drive it like a no-performance car. Whats the point? I LIKE the feel of pointing my toes.

Now - look at the Chicago Boring pods. They have bench seats - sitting sideways. Imagine acceleration to 125 mph while sitting sideways.
Am I the first to put 2+2?

 

[Seawind300]

When my wife is driving her car and I suffer as her passenger, I think she is too slow on the throttle and too hard on the brakes, and way-way-way to frequent on the brakes. I threaten to hang a pendulum from her mirror to show how much herky-jerky she is doing. So I tested out my pendulum in my car when she was not there. I know I'm a very smooth driver and she is jerky, but the pendulum shows otherwise. Damn data.

Try a glass (not bottle) of water on the dash...... amazing how smooth you become

Mike

 

[dhanson865]

You buy a performance car, then drive it like a no-performance car. Whats the point? I LIKE the feel of pointing my toes.

Now - look at the Chicago Boring pods. They have bench seats - sitting sideways. Imagine acceleration to 125 mph while sitting sideways.
Am I the first to put 2+2?

You don't even have to sit in the pod, there is room to stand, you can take a bike on it. So acceleration will be slow enough to not knock you over / prevent loose objects from bouncing around. Notice all the luggage just sitting lose on the floor of the pod with no one holding it, not in any sort of rack.

Hyperloop is likely a different story, the pods that go into near vacuum tunnels will see higher speeds and will likely have front facing seats only.