Removable / swappable pack options?

[TEG]

Is it official? They didn't say much about it, but I saw this reported about the Model S:
2012 Tesla Model S revealed! (updated)

...the Model S’ battery can also be swapped out in just five minutes, making it compatible with Shai Agassi’s Better Place initiative...

 

[DDB]

Is it official? They didn't say much about it, but I saw this reported about the Model S:
2012 Tesla Model S revealed! (updated)

Good catch TEG. You would think that would be something worth mentioning yesterday...would you not? If it's true, that's a bump to both platforms.

 

[vfx]

Elon did say this in his Model S introduction speech. Though it sounded like, Change the battery out faster that changing a gas tank".

Kinda weird but there were a lot of people talking around me...

 

[SByer]

Marginalize your compliment

If Tesla isn't going into battery swapping themselves, it's in their best interest to stay battery-swapping-station agnostic, if possible. Foster the competition. Your ICE car can fuel from any brand station, your BEV should be able to swap at any swap station.

Yes, there's the little minor detail of standards and things, but if the Tesla design is reasonable, first mover has a lot of power to set the standard.

 

[TEG]

The article I quoted said (or implied?) that it would be compatible. Is that wishful thinking from the reporter? I think there is a pattern of "leading" comments being made that allow reporters to jump to conclusions, sometimes wrong. I wish they would try harder to be "matter of fact", not "suggestive".

 

[TEG]

This article is much less certain:
"Tesla Model S Unveiled: A Great Concept, but Now the Wait Begins" Green Car Advisor

...The flat battery pack can be designed into the car to be easily and quickly removed and swapped for a fully charged pack when it is depleted.

Musk said this doesn't mean that it will be designed that way, or that Tesla is going to evangelize for a national battery swap standard, but it does mean that if everything came together and battery swapping instead of plug-in recharging became the thing to do, the Tesla S would be able to do it...

So is it an advertised, standardized feature, or just a future wishlist item? Annoying these vague details reported different ways.

 

[TEG]

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[Albern]

Regardless of whether the Model S pack is swappable or not I think it's in Tesla's best interest carry this feature through to production. While I'm not a fan of a battery swapping infrastructure to make EVs "more" viable having the ability to quickly replace battery packs would be the best way to keep service costs down and opens many doors for future pack improvements.

From the information we've received so far this past week, if the goal is to charge $5,000 for a replacement pack Model S better have the ability to drop out those batteries ASAP.

Does anyone remember how long it takes to install the entire drivetrain plus batteries in a Roadster?

 

[TEG]

I think they said something like 8 hours for the Roadster.

Also, I wonder if that $5000 pack quote is correct.
I saw another quote <$500 per kWh. That would be about $20K for the base pack.

 

[EVnut]

Yeah, I think we can safely drop the idea of a $5000 pack. They will have to invent some magic mo-jo to pull that off. I think it is just a typo that has propagated. If we can have 100+ mile Li-ion packs for $5000, then the whole game changes.... like NOW.

 

[iknowdoyou]

Battery Swap

Hi folks,

I have a rather generic question on the battery swap theory. Will this five minute swap be a case of owners being able to purchase a second battery pack that's kept in their garage, or would it be more like an owner would need to drop by their local Tesla store and have it done there?

If it's the former, how would we charge the secondary pack, and if it's the latter, how often would that be needed for the average owner? Is this just to make battery maintenance more palatable to a would-be purchaser?

Thanks!

Ryan

 

[doug]

I'm just getting to some of these threads from last weekend.

Here's a four minute clip of my interview with Franz that should be relevant. If you're really impatient, skip in one minute. (I posted a full 22 minute version earlier, including questions from some print journos.)

He may be a bit out of his element, but Franz mentions discussions with Better Place as well as Tesla quick charge stations between cities.

 

[DDB]

Hi folks,

I have a rather generic question on the battery swap theory. Will this five minute swap be a case of owners being able to purchase a second battery pack that's kept in their garage, or would it be more like an owner would need to drop by their local Tesla store and have it done there?

If it's the former, how would we charge the secondary pack, and if it's the latter, how often would that be needed for the average owner? Is this just to make battery maintenance more palatable to a would-be purchaser?

Thanks!

Ryan

Tesla would need to partner with someone with a major distribution network if it's the latter--how about McDonald's or another food chain? The PBP model makes the most sense rather than taking them on...although you have to admit, they are ahead of the game with wheels on the road now (none of which are swappable, admitably).

 

[graham]

Interesting nugget towards the end of this article:

Senators test-drive green cars on Capitol Hill - CNN.com

Tesla spokesman Joe Powers told CNN his company now has about 400 of the sleek, aerodynamic cars in private hands. "We've created a viable car, and we came out with this model first to help draw attention to the Tesla brand," he said.

The California-based company also is developing a a sedan that will use the same advanced battery technology as the sports car, which costs about $109,000.

"It will be the kind of car you can take on a trip, and carry four passengers and their luggage," Powers said. It uses 7,000 lithium-ion cells of the same chemistry now powering cell phones and laptop computers.

"We are working on a battery exchange program that will cut the cost of these vehicles by about $35,000," Powers said, describing a leasing program where owners can swap a used-up battery back for a new one.

 

[Tdave]

Does that imply that the 300 mile pack would cost $35k more than the 160 mile pack? That can't be right.

 

[Kevin Harney]

No it implies that they might sell the car with no battery included !!! Just a leasing option perhaps.

 

[ozman]

No it implies that they might sell the car with no battery included !!! Just a leasing option perhaps.

I read that earlier too and got the same impression. I honestly do think that is absolutely what they are aiming for. I read/heard/watched somewhere (sorry can't remember where) Elon saying it was equivelent to a $35,000 gas guzzler and that you could have the option to "feel the benefit straight away by leasing". That could mean leasing entire cars, but I also think it is a strong hint at leasing batteries also.

Although I wasn't a fan of the battery pack swap thing when I first heard it, I do think it is a good idea, and it may well prove to be Tesla's most popular version. I imagine if they get the pricing right A LOT of people would be interested in renting the battery rather then paying for it up front (even without the swap station infrastructure). If that is the case, then it makes the infrastructure viable. Good move all round!

$35k Model S, and battery pack lease plans + cost of electricity that works out no more then what you'd spend on petrol anyway? I think it is coming

 

[roblab]

Although I wasn't a fan of the battery pack swap thing when I first heard it, I do think it is a good idea, and it may well prove to be Tesla's most popular version.

I personally don't get it.
If I treat my battery pack gently, I might get twice the life. If someone else runs his pack to zero every other day, and charges it full with a quick charge every time, both known to lower a pack's life, all he has to do is go to the swap station??? They'd better have a way of telling what condition the battery is in and CHARGE for the deterioration somehow. And NO way am I going to want to swap my cared-for battery with anyone's throw away swap. If it's worth $35K why are we rewarding someone who's trashing it??
Rob

 

[graham]

I wonder if Tesla can keep track of a batteries use and charge more for people who abuse it to discourage abuse. Certainly the car will know how many quick charges, how many full discharges etc.

The equivalent of a rental car where you sign an agreement saying: I will pay for all damages, and pay extra for driving over 100 miles in it.

 

[WarpedOne]

roblab:

I personally don't get it.

That's because "such swappable battery packs" idea just stinks.
It sounds cool until you start to think about it and read a thing or two about batteries.

If I treat my battery pack gently, I might get twice the life. If someone else runs his pack to zero every other day, and charges it full with a quick charge every time, both known to lower a pack's life, all he has to do is go to the swap station??? They'd better have a way of telling what condition the battery is in and CHARGE for the deterioration somehow. And NO way am I going to want to swap my cared-for battery with anyone's throw away swap. If it's worth $35K why are we rewarding someone who's trashing it??

Exactly. Thats why generic battery swap stations just won't work in practice.

But swappable batteries are useful nevertheless. You buy an electric car and pay for the battery or lease one or both of them. Both, car and battery are yours but you can still go and rent a bigger battery when you think you're going to need it and swap it with yours. Your battery is stored at the battery-rent center and is waiting for you to return the rented one.