Renewable Energy Cost

[getakey]

saw this posted on another Forum I belong to. Obviously not very supportive of solar/wind/battery

I found that some of the analogies were not apples to apples, but what other faults can you find?

What's Wrong with Wind and Solar?

 

[Ampster]

but what other faults can you find?

They use the word "massive" a lot. When the article does use facts they are sometimes used out of context or not used equally. For example the amount of energy required to search for, extract, transport and refine crude oil to produce on gallon of gasoline is never stated. We may be at the efficiency limit of wind and solar, there are no limits to how many of those units can be deployed. Sucessful examples from Europe are not mentioned.

 

[getakey]

They use the word "massive" a lot. When the article does use facts they are sometimes used out of context or not used equally. For example the amount of energy required to search for, extract, transport and refine crude oil to produce on gallon of gasoline is never stated. We may be at the efficiency limit of wind and solar, there are no limits to how many of those units can be deployed. Sucessful examples from Europe are not mentioned.

Agree. No mention of the costs and materials to build non-renewable generation and what it already does to the environment.

 

[h2ofun]

saw this posted on another Forum I belong to. Obviously not very supportive of solar/wind/battery

I found that some of the analogies were not apples to apples, but what other faults can you find?

What's Wrong with Wind and Solar?

Was the point I was trying to make with a comment in another thread that EV cars are not that green. Interesting timing.

 

[jjrandorin]

This isnt really a "tesla energy" topic.. it likely belongs in the "energy and environment" forum:

Energy, Environment, and Policy

Still mulling it over at this point, but I will say that we certainly are not going to have an "are EVs green" discussion in this part of TMC, it will be moved there since thats the appropriate place for that discussion.

 

[strykeroz]

Lots of largely irrelevant stats in this quiz.

 

[getakey]

This isnt really a "tesla energy" topic.. it likely belongs in the "energy and environment" forum:

Energy, Environment, and Policy

Still mulling it over at this point, but I will say that we certainly are not going to have an "are EVs green" discussion in this part of TMC, it will be moved there since thats the appropriate place for that discussion.

I did not even realize there was a Forum like that

 

[h2ofun]

I did not even realize there was a Forum like that

Me either. Some interesting threads.

 

[jjrandorin]

This isnt really a "tesla energy" topic.. it likely belongs in the "energy and environment" forum:

Energy, Environment, and Policy

Still mulling it over at this point, but I will say that we certainly are not going to have an "are EVs green" discussion in this part of TMC, it will be moved there since thats the appropriate place for that discussion.

(moderator note: moving thread to energy forum on TMC. Leaving 3 day re direct from this forum to new location so people participating can find it in new location)

 

[nwdiver]

saw this posted on another Forum I belong to. Obviously not very supportive of solar/wind/battery

I found that some of the analogies were not apples to apples, but what other faults can you find?

What's Wrong with Wind and Solar?

LOL! .... PragerU??? Seriously? As a general rule... if an organization advocates for keeping monuments to traitors because they killed abolitionists..... I disregard everything they have to say about anything...

 

[ThomasD]

Are there any plans to restart The Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

 

[nwdiver]

Are there any plans to restart The Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

I hope not. Thermal generation is economically obsolete.

 

[strykeroz]

Lots of largely irrelevant stats in this quiz.

I've been resisting expanding on this all day, but feel I should

#1 Meaninless comparison. It doesn't matter how efficient solar PV is (mine were 21% when new) if you don't state the efficiency of burning fossils in generation (it's about 40%, not counting the energy to get the coal/oil/gas out of the ground and delivered to the power station first). Your PV fuel is free and costs nothing to extract & transport. PV is already cheaper than fossils at generation, and still improving on efficiency.

#2 Pointless question. Asking how long one factory will take to build something is again meaningless, but even moreso since grid scale batteries are not for storing a day's worth of any nation's power use. The biggest battery today, at Neoen's Hornsdale Power Reserve in South Australia is sized to hold the state grid up for 5 minutes in the case of a system trip. That's plenty long enough to avoid repeating the 2016 state-wide blackout when power stations tripped off due to network storm damage. Big batteries are generally for grid stability, not long term storage.

#3 A point in time only. Some grids are already 100% renewable or more. IEA reported 90% of new generation added in 2020 was renewable (Renewables 2020 – Analysis - IEA). On the subsidy front, fossil fuels now in their end days are still subsidised while renewable subsidies are being wound back due to their cost curves still improving.

#4 Inaccurate. Wind turbines weren't recyclable but this is being actively improved. MHI Vestas has produced an 80% recyclable 9MW wind turbine designed for a 25 yr lifespan which can be upgraded & rebuilt to extend that life. At one time wind turbines used a lot of timber too...

#5 Relatively short compared to what? As per #4 most components are recyclable, individual panels or turbines can be replaced or upgraded rather than whole plant being torn down as happens with fossil burners which have a design life of 40-50 years only themselves.

And now I've typed all that... I see the quoted website is funded by coal seam gas interests PragerU - Wikipedia
Nevermind...

 

[nwdiver]

And now I've typed all that... I see the quoted website is funded by coal seam gas interests PragerU - Wikipedia
Nevermind...

'University' .... in the same sense as Trump 'University'....

#1 Meaninless comparison. It doesn't matter how efficient solar PV is (mine were 21% when new) if you don't state the efficiency of burning fossils in generation

The efficiency of solar panels is even less relevant than that. The analogy I use is that say I have two boxes... box A and box B. I offer you 10% of the money in box A or 90% of the money in box B. You don't have enough information to make a informed choice... do you? You have no idea how much money is in each box. You could get 10% of $1M if you choose box A or 90% of $10 if you choose box B. A solar panel will produce about a kWh per day. Why do I care if that's 1%, 5% or 20% of what's available? If anything lower efficiency would be a 'good' thing. Means there's room for future solar panels to be even better.

 

[ladysbff]

saw this posted on another Forum I belong to. Obviously not very supportive of solar/wind/battery

I found that some of the analogies were not apples to apples, but what other faults can you find?

What's Wrong with Wind and Solar?

Perhaps you can copy and paste here for those who refuse to give PragerU clicks for reasons...

Court Says You Don’t Have a First Amendment Right to Make Money Off YouTube

PragerU is a Legit University, As Long as Dennis Prager Gets to Decide What That Means | Right Wing Watch

PragerU - Wikipedia

Do you trust a media company who is funded by frackers to give you honest information about renewable energy? Not trying to be snarky, actual question for you

 

[getakey]

I've been resisting expanding on this all day, but feel I should

#1 Meaninless comparison. It doesn't matter how efficient solar PV is (mine were 21% when new) if you don't state the efficiency of burning fossils in generation (it's about 40%, not counting the energy to get the coal/oil/gas out of the ground and delivered to the power station first). Your PV fuel is free and costs nothing to extract & transport. PV is already cheaper than fossils at generation, and still improving on efficiency.

#2 Pointless question. Asking how long one factory will take to build something is again meaningless, but even moreso since grid scale batteries are not for storing a day's worth of any nation's power use. The biggest battery today, at Neoen's Hornsdale Power Reserve in South Australia is sized to hold the state grid up for 5 minutes in the case of a system trip. That's plenty long enough to avoid repeating the 2016 state-wide blackout when power stations tripped off due to network storm damage. Big batteries are generally for grid stability, not long term storage.

#3 A point in time only. Some grids are already 100% renewable or more. IEA reported 90% of new generation added in 2020 was renewable (Renewables 2020 – Analysis - IEA). On the subsidy front, fossil fuels now in their end days are still subsidised while renewable subsidies are being wound back due to their cost curves still improving.

#4 Inaccurate. Wind turbines weren't recyclable but this is being actively improved. MHI Vestas has produced an 80% recyclable 9MW wind turbine designed for a 25 yr lifespan which can be upgraded & rebuilt to extend that life. At one time wind turbines used a lot of timber too...

#5 Relatively short compared to what? As per #4 most components are recyclable, individual panels or turbines can be replaced or upgraded rather than whole plant being torn down as happens with fossil burners which have a design life of 40-50 years only themselves.

And now I've typed all that... I see the quoted website is funded by coal seam gas interests PragerU - Wikipedia
Nevermind...

Thanks for the write up

 

[getakey]

Perhaps you can copy and paste here for those who refuse to give PragerU clicks for reasons...

Court Says You Don’t Have a First Amendment Right to Make Money Off YouTube

PragerU is a Legit University, As Long as Dennis Prager Gets to Decide What That Means | Right Wing Watch

PragerU - Wikipedia
View attachment 624099

Do you trust a media company who is funded by frackers to give you honest information about renewable energy? Not trying to be snarky, actual question for you

Thanks for the info on them. Its a video so I cannot copy/paste