Replace 6-30 Outlet with 14-30 (without Neutral Connected)

[davewill]

Ground and neutral both go back to the same buss in my panel (or in other panels they are seperate but connected together).
So I too am struggling with why a 10-30 would have been bad idea. Does the neutral wire need to be sleeved?

If it's the only outlet on the branch you could just move the ground to the neutral inside the electric box and be done with it? (seems like it wouldn't matter since they are tied together anyways, or in my case there is only one bar.

Yes, the neutral needs to be insulated since it carries current, plus you aren't allowed to install new 10-30 outlets, PLUS he wanted to leave the 6-30 plug in place, so the neutral would still have been connected to the ground pin of anything plugged into that outlet creating a shock hazard. He should have simply made/bought an adapter from 10-30 or 14-30 to 6-30. The stuff about thermal sensing was not a code problem like the rest of these ideas are.

 

[eprosenx]

Ground and neutral both go back to the same buss in my panel (or in other panels they are seperate but connected together).
So I too am struggling with why a 10-30 would have been bad idea. Does the neutral wire need to be sleeved?

If it's the only outlet on the branch you could just move the ground to the neutral inside the electric box and be done with it? (seems like it wouldn't matter since they are tied together anyways, or in my case there is only one bar.

Yes, the issue is that the wire needs to be sleeved just like a hot conductor would. Neutral is a current carrying conductor. Also, I think the wire size for the ground in NM cable is sometimes (often?) of smaller gauge than the main conductors.

But yes, if it was of sufficient ampacity and sleeved you could use it as a neutral. To your comment of the "busses tied together in the panel". This is true and they are generally interchangeable IF it is the main service entry panel. If it is a sub panel this does not apply. They need to be treated separately.

 

[mswlogo]

Yes, the neutral needs to be insulated since it carries current, plus you aren't allowed to install new 10-30 outlets, PLUS he wanted to leave the 6-30 plug in place, so the neutral would still have been connected to the ground pin of anything plugged into that outlet creating a shock hazard. He should have simply made/bought an adapter from 10-30 or 14-30 to 6-30. The stuff about thermal sensing was not a code problem like the rest of these ideas are.

This, in my opinion, is a bad idea. It may not be a code problem, but it’s more vulnerable to failure. The adapters you mention are “illegal”. There is no legal way to convert a 6-30 (which is what it is) into 10-30 or 14-30. And you added another connection that is not thermal monitored. I’m sure a lot of people do this.

You’d be better off cutting the end off a 14-30 UMC adapter and put a 6-30 plug on (which you can buy). This is probably the most legal thing you could do. However you might (likely will) be cutting off the thermal monitor.

I have no extra adapters, only one “plug” and it’s thermal monitored. Buy yeah it doesn’t meet code. I’m more concerned with safety than code.

Only way to fix it would be to run 10-3. To much work for a “check box”. I’d be adding a neutral that is not used by the UMC (or Wall Connector) or The Heater.

One other fix is use a Wall Connector. That is as safe but also would not meet code. Because it should be in a dedicated circuit. I doubt the switch makes it meet code.

By the way I did add one more vulnerability. I added the switch. But I thought it was worth it.

I’m serious about these vulnersbilitues. Because it’s a lot current, for a long time, while your sleeping.

 

[eprosenx]

One other fix is use a Wall Connector. That is as safe but also would not meet code. Because it should be in a dedicated circuit. I doubt the switch makes it meet code.

FWIW, I think it may actually be OK code wise to have what is effectively a transfer switch between the heater and a Wall Connector.

In my book that is a dedicated circuit. It is just hooked to one device or another at any given time.

I really don't see what the danger could be in that situation other than the additional connections into the switch or the switch itself, but as long as it is rated for it....

The reason they want a dedicate circuit for the Wall Connector is so that you are not sharing the available capacity of the wire with something else which in combination may overload the wire. The switch eliminates that possibility. They also want the smallest fault current device (breaker) possible, hence why they don't want you just putting two 30a devices on a single 60a breaker. If either causes a fault they want to be able to just blow a 30a breaker and not have to try to blow a 60a breaker.

 

[mswlogo]

FWIW, I think it may actually be OK code wise to have what is effectively a transfer switch between the heater and a Wall Connector.

In my book that is a dedicated circuit. It is just hooked to one device or another at any given time.

I really don't see what the danger could be in that situation other than the additional connections into the switch or the switch itself, but as long as it is rated for it....

The reason they want a dedicate circuit for the Wall Connector is so that you are not sharing the available capacity of the wire with something else which in combination may overload the wire. The switch eliminates that possibility. They also want the smallest fault current device (breaker) possible, hence why they don't want you just putting two 30a devices on a single 60a breaker. If either causes a fault they want to be able to just blow a 30a breaker and not have to try to blow a 60a breaker.

I understand the reasoning. But when they say “dedicated circuit” they usually mean straight to the panel.

Think about it. Furnaces should be on a dedicated circuit because you don’t want a toaster oven on the same circuit because it could trip the breaker due to say a fault. Then your pipes freeze. Same goes for a fridge. Same goes for smoke detectors. It’s not for load purposes. It’s for “other common faults” interrupting critical appliances.

Now understanding that mind set behind the code do you think they would allow an A/B switch on the furnace, fridge or smoke detectors circuit. No way. Now I’m not sure the thinking behind the EV shall be on a dedicated circuit. But if it’s similar launguage I doubt they would want to see a switch on that circuit.

Now since mine is a switch between 2 general purpose outlets it gets a little more grey. once I wire wall connector, it’s strictly an EV circuit.

I could plug my EV into any outlet in the house. Or the switched 30 amp one.

 

[miimura]

I think in the code a dedicated circuit for non-essential equipment means that only one appliance or load can draw from a given breaker at any moment. A transfer switch enforces this single load requirement. I would have no reservations applying for a permit to share the circuit for an EVSE (plug-in or hard wired) through a transfer switch with a clothes dryer, range, A/C compressor, or welder. Of course, the prominent "good reason" to do this is that a load calc will not support doing it any other way without upgrading the panel and/or service.

 

[davewill]

This, in my opinion, is a bad idea. It may not be a code problem, but it’s more vulnerable to failure. The adapters you mention are “illegal”. There is no legal way to convert a 6-30 (which is what it is) into 10-30 or 14-30. And you added another connection that is not thermal monitored. I’m sure a lot of people do this.

....

Can't agree with any of that. Your install won't pass inspection and since you obviously didn't bother with a permit I can't take anything YOU say about safety or legality very seriously.

 

[mswlogo]

Can't agree with any of that. Your install won't pass inspection and since you obviously didn't bother with a permit I can't take anything YOU say about safety or legality very seriously.

And some people have a problem seeing the forest through the trees.

Illegal (hazardous) adapters seem to be favored approach by many. I disagree.

 

[mswlogo]

Neat and tidy.

 

[timk225]

Instead of all these half-assed ways of trying to make a thing work in the way it is not supposed to.......

:

 

[mswlogo]

Instead of all these half-assed ways of trying to make a thing work in the way it is not supposed to.......

:

Exactly my point. Using illegal adapters to satisfy "code" is half-assed.
Folks suggesting using anything from these guys
https://www.evseadapters.com

are clueless.

 

[Dmagyar]

My take, that your using 240 volts what in the world would you need that neutral conductor for? Both phased (hot conductors) are out of phase with each other and thus have a difference of potential, which correspondingly allows 240 volt services. In a balanced load which I would guess is certainly the case here, there’s no current flow via that neutral. PS, in your main panel, both the “neutral” and the “ground” are the same point electrically, they’re only isolated in any downstream sub panels.
Of course the situation of having the adapter body outside is problematic and in need of a better solution.

 

[davewill]

Exactly my point. Using illegal adapters to satisfy "code" is half-assed.
Folks suggesting using anything from these guys
https://www.evseadapters.com

are clueless.

Sorry, but with your ridiculously clueless install, you have no business giving safety lectures.

 

[mswlogo]

Sorry, but with your ridiculously clueless install, you have no business giving safety lectures.

The ONLY completely legal setup with 10-2 (which is what I had to work with) is the Wall Connector.
The ONLY way to use 30amp (new install) legally with the UMC is a 14-30 (10-3) and Neutral is NOT used.

All I did was not use Neutral 4 inches earlier to avoid hacks.

Installing a 10-30 (also illegal even though many people do it) to me is just as bad as a 14-30 with an unconnected Neutral.

Everything else is a compromise (adapters). Some "work arounds" meet "code" and some do not.
Some "work arounds" are safer than others.

The work around I chose is perfectly safe for this application.

A friend had his pool wired by a licensed electrician. His pool never passed inspection. I wired mine, it passed no problem. Pools are probably one of the most strictly inspected. I wired the whole service and passed inspection (you can see photo of it earlier, no electrician would do it as well, because they would lose money spending that much time on it). I'm actually at the rough stage on my garage. Still needs final inspection. If he doesn't like it (and he probably won't) I'll put a 6-30 in and use an illegal adapter. I'm hoping he won't even notice the new "outlet". He would if he saw the wall connector for sure. That is part of the reason I chose not to use one. I'm not sure a wall connector would pass either with the switch (probably). He will get mad (rightfully) if he notices anything I changed from original plans. I doubt he'll notice one extra outlet.

So, Jr, how many Tesla charging installs have you done? This is my 2nd and working on a 3rd.

 

[davewill]

The ONLY completely legal setup with 10-2 (which is what I had to work with) is the Wall Connector.
The ONLY way to use 30amp (new install) legally with the UMC is a 14-30 (10-3) and Neutral is NOT used.

All I did was not use Neutral 4 inches earlier to avoid hacks.

Installing a 10-30 (also illegal even though many people do it) to me is just as bad as a 14-30 with an unconnected Neutral.

Everything else is a compromise (adapters). Some "work arounds" meet "code" and some do not.
Some "work arounds" are safer than others.

The work around I chose is perfectly safe for this application.

...

So if you put the word code in quotes, then you get to ignore it? There's nothing safe about the way you've hacked things up. Personally, I don't care what you do at home, but coming here and telling everyone it's the SAFEST choice is too much. An external adapter from 6-30 to 14-30 or 10-30 would have been much, much better than your install. If someone plugs a device into your outlet that expects that neutral to be attached, all kinds of bad can occur. While that could also happen with an adapter, at least you can keep physical control of the adapter to help assure it is not misused. Plus, the next owner doesn't have to deal with a bad install in the wall...sure you'll tell me that you wouldn't let that happen, but stuff happens. You could get hit by a bus (an electric one, of course) and never get to remove or fix it. Some neighbor or relative (maybe a contractor who's doing work at your house?) could make a decision to plug the wrong thing in there when you're not around to stop them. You'll say that's not possible, but it is.

So, Jr, ....

My name's not Jr. Let's keep things civil, shall we?

 

[mswlogo]

So if you put the word code in quotes, then you get to ignore it? There's nothing safe about the way you've hacked things up. Personally, I don't care what you do at home, but coming here and telling everyone it's the SAFEST choice is too much. An external adapter from 6-30 to 14-30 or 10-30 would have been much, much better than your install. If someone plugs a device into your outlet that expects that neutral to be attached, all kinds of bad can occur. While that could also happen with an adapter, at least you can keep physical control of the adapter to help assure it is not misused. Plus, the next owner doesn't have to deal with a bad install in the wall...sure you'll tell me that you wouldn't let that happen, but stuff happens. You could get hit by a bus (an electric one, of course) and never get to remove or fix it. Some neighbor or relative (maybe a contractor who's doing work at your house?) could make a decision to plug the wrong thing in there when you're not around to stop them. You'll say that's not possible, but it is.


My name's not Jr. Let's keep things civil, shall we?

I could make the same argument that the adapters you suggest do EXACTLY they same thing.
And they are portable, which makes it worse. And no Temperature monitor.

So you are suggesting to others something that is less safe when used on the Tesla AND can be missed used exactly the same way as the 14-30 Neutral-less outlet. Just because it's not attached to the house doesn't make it safe.

You seem to condone the use of illegal adapters as much as I put code in quotes.

A 6-30 to 14-30 adapter is exactly the same thing !!!

So why exactly is your solution better again. Let's see.

You add MORE connections (more points of failure). And usually the weakest point. Now you have 2.
You add Un-temperature monitored connection.
You add access to a 14-30 socket (on the end of your recommended adapter) with no Neutral !!

Do you think that Adapter magically creates a Neutral?

Just because it's not bolted to the house, that makes it all OK?

No, it doesn't.

I'm telling folks what I chose to do and why. They can do what ever they want.
Using a 6-30 to 14-30 adapter is a BAD. Really bad idea.

The real problem is there is no way to use a 10-2 circuit without a Wall Connector. Period. Because Tesla doesn't make the correct TEMPERATURE monitored adapter for a 6-30. It's really dumb they don't. If it was not for the temperature monitor in the PLUG, I would have hacked the end off the UMC adapter and put a 6-30 plug on it. By adding the adapter your monitoring the 14-30 plug, but you are not monitoring the added 6-30 plug.

I think the Temperature Monitor of the "Joints" is a REALLY a good idea.

You're basically dismissing that, critical, in my opinion, component.
This is very high load for long hours in the night. I want that temperature monitor on every joint.

I was an electrician in my younger years and I can't tell you how many burned out dryer outlets I replaced.

I will clearly label the outlet. I feel safer the way I chose to do it. Your suggestion is more dangerous.

 

[davewill]

...
I think the Temperature Monitor of the "Joints" is a REALLY a good idea.

You're basically dismissing that, critical, in my opinion, component.
This is very high load for long hours in the night. I want that temperature monitor on every joint.
...

Temperature sensors aren't required, code compliant installs are. The reason I keep "ignoring" your points is because they don't pass code inspection, so it doesn't matter whether you THINK they are better or not.

I'll laugh my butt off when the inspector fails you and you proceed to use an adapter as you said you would before. If you really believed what you say, you would either re-run the circuit with 4 wires, or install a hard-wired wall connector, but you won't.

 

[mswlogo]

Temperature sensors aren't required, code compliant installs are. The reason I keep "ignoring" your points is because they don't pass code inspection, so it doesn't matter whether you THINK they are better or not.

I'll laugh my butt off when the inspector fails you and you proceed to use an adapter as you said you would before. If you really believed what you say, you would either re-run the circuit with 4 wires, or install a hard-wired wall connector, but you won't.

Ok let’s agree to disagree.

You think code is more important than the Temperature sensor that is not required by code. I don’t.

Fair enough.

 

[mswlogo]

Surgery success. Took all of an hour.

I bought it off ebay. It was the same "Series" panel, but it was a 200 Amp Breaker and Copper Buss. And it was missing the Main Breaker.
I got it for a $100. Took all of an hour to replace. I was able to slide the neutral bars off and didn't have to rewire them.

So now I have 4 spare slots.

Basically slid the old buss out and the new one in.

This was the old.

This is the new buss.

 

[eprosenx]

Surgery success. Took all of an hour.

I bought it off ebay. It was the same "Series" panel, but it was a 200 Amp Breaker and Copper Buss. And it was missing the Main Breaker.
I got it for a $100. Took all of an hour to replace. I was able to slide the neutral bars off and didn't have to rewire them.

So now I have 4 spare slots.

Basically slid the old buss out and the new one in.

This was the old.

This is the new buss.

Nice! So does that mean you separately bought the bus and the breaker and put them together? Or did you re-use your existing 150 amp breaker?

I assume you re-used the 150a main breaker since that is all your main feed wire can support I presume? (do you know what size and type of wire that was?)

What type of metal connects from the output of the main breaker to the bus? Did you re-use the old piece, or did you use the one that came with the "new" (used) breaker? Any issues with differences in the type of metal at those joints?

Also, what can/did you do about labeling? Are there any differences in the specifications on the new vs. the old bus units that are documented in the panel sticker? (just want to make sure there are not any "gotchas" for future owners)

Nice job though on finding parts to make the panel "whole" again!