(Reported on 12/26/2015) 11+ car wait at Tejon Ranch!

[ohmman]

As we begin to get more Supercharger options in each location realm (e.g. Tejon/Buttonwillow, Roseville/Rocklin), having a congestion app on the dashboard becomes much more necessary. While the Buttonwillow Supercharger may relieve Tejon to some degree, what if you see a line of 5 cars at Tejon and decide to skip, only to arrive at Buttonwillow to find a line of 8 cars? At this point you have no option but to stay.

Leaving this up to randomness is partially effective, but not optimally so. I don't think it needs to be integrated into Nav (plenty of existing work to be done there), but something that just shows which are full would be great. As an added point of information, it could show how many other Teslas are in the immediate area. Some may not be waiting, but it would give the driver a good idea of what to expect upon arrival.

 

[MichFin]

As an added point of information, it could show how many other Teslas are in the immediate area. Some may not be waiting, but it would give the driver a good idea of what to expect upon arrival.

Even a simple color code as green, yellow red to show how many open stalls there are.

 

[Vitold]

As an added point of information, it could show how many other Teslas are in the immediate area. Some may not be waiting, but it would give the driver a good idea of what to expect upon arrival.

Why complicate things? Navi should know exactly when Tesla will need to charge and where. Just have each car send that info to the mothership.

 

[4SUPER9]

As we begin to get more Supercharger options in each location realm (e.g. Tejon/Buttonwillow, Roseville/Rocklin), having a congestion app on the dashboard becomes much more necessary.

I agree with all of the sentiments above. I think a complex algorithm that attempts to give us information about how many cars are waiting is great, but a little pie-in-the-sky for right now. TM has the data of how many people are charging at a given destination, and has always had that data. When Mojave was closed the other day, I called TM ahead of time to ensure it was functioning again. They were able to instantly tell me how many people were charging at that exact moment. They had data like this posted at Hawthorne for some time. They could put their data on a website that we can save as a favorite. No app required. No, it will not tell us how many people are waiting, but it is a start, and they can do it NOW. They can add features and complexities to it over time. They need to start somewhere...

 

[ohmman]

Why complicate things? Navi should know exactly when Tesla will need to charge and where. Just have each car send that info to the mothership.

Have you used nav lately? I was specifically trying to avoid integrating that piece until it's more, uh, robust. :wink:

 

[richkae]

I would rather pay a fee to supercharge every time than ever wait in a line like that.

 

[bmah]

They could put their data on a website that we can save as a favorite. No app required. No, it will not tell us how many people are waiting, but it is a start, and they can do it NOW. They can add features and complexities to it over time. They need to start somewhere...

It can even be just a Web accessible data dump...there are a bunch of people in the community that can make a pretty Web page from the data.

"Do you want to build a Web site? It doesn't have to be a Web site...OK bye..."

(Yeah sorry, my son is listening to songs from Frozen and that just came to mind...)

 

[MichFin]

It can't see how many cars are waiting but it can easily show how many open stalls there are.

As the new 200 mile Leaf and Bolt come out we should see lots of for fee fast chargers become available. We will just need some adapters

 

[Lloyd]

Even a webcam would be better than nothing!!

 

[essaunders]

I would rather pay a fee to supercharge every time than ever wait in a line like that.

I anticipate (hopefully after a full preliminary build out) a second, paid, tier of 'ultra-chargers'. They'd be higher power/rate for the next gen car or would max out current cars. Existing cars/customers would continue to get 'free supercharging for life' on the supercharger network but Telsa would be able to generate revenue from 'ultra charging'. Presumably new higher-rate-capable cars/trucks would be backwards compatible to free superchargers too. This ulta-charger model may allow 'franchising' of the charging by allowing a revenue stream for hosts. I suspect a standard package including significant battery storage would be needed to mitigate demand charges.

situations like Tejon would offer all Tesla drivers a choice, pay for ultra chargers or use the free superchargers.

 

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Ok so let me summarize for those who don't want to read 19 pages of comments:

1) Tejon is congested during the Holidays.
2) The wait was 3 hours+
3) ButtonWillow is opening soon and can alleviate the congestions for those who can make it there
4) Tesla needs to install more stalls at Tejon to alleviate the congestions
5) Some are saying even ButtonWillow might not help because there are way too many teslas traveling during the holidays
6) No local owners are waiting that long just to get a free charge. So opportunity charging is not the problem here. Just Holiday rush!
7) Tesla knows who is charging and for how long at all their charging stations. They need to make app to notify users ahead of arrival or reroute users to different stations.
8) Tesla can help alleviate this problem by installing portable SC during these peak demands or install HPWC for those who plan to stick around long anyways.
9) Businesses should install CHadeMo or other chargers and help this problem. They can charge money too for those owners who do not want to wait. This solution will only work during peak demand period.
10) owners can drive slower to make it another destination. Most likely not possible for Tejon because there is a mountain nearby and temperature and climb can greatly affect range.
11) Tesla should consider battery swap for these high congestion areas.
12) Tesla owners should consider traveling and using SC outside of peak demand time.
13) Model X and 3 will further add to the problem
14) This is bad publicity for Tesla
15) Implement 130KW or 150KW charging to help get people out of the stalls faster.
16) Charge fee for charging at SC to help reduce demand

I think I got most of what people have suggested in no particular order. Feel free to add more or what not.

Here are my comments on this issues:

There should not be only 1 solution. The best approach is to implement most of the solutions. Make it a multi-modal solution!

A) Start with the easiest and cheapest one like the simple app showing how many stalls are occupied and for how long. Notify users when they are almost finish and finished charging. Also let them know how many stalls are occupied so if they see some occupied, they would be more inclined to move their car. This is only software and no need to change any hardware.

B) Using data analysis and such, plan the SC expansion properly to account for peak demand and alternatives. For instance San Juan Capistrano is always in high demand. But why? is it from local users or long distance traveler like at Tejon pass? Priority should be made to expand Tejon pass instead of San Juan because people at San Juan have plenty of alternatives, ChadeMo, L2, HPWC, etc, while Tejon have no alternatives. So do strategic expansion and take into account ALL variables, not just which ones are congested the most.

C) consider portable SC units. Tesla has them and "run" them when needed to help alleviate the problem.

D) Research faster charging or at least faster sustained charging to get people out faster.

E) Incentives users to travel outside the peak demand period whatever that maybe. Or the opposite, penalize users. I think the time penalty/incentive is enough, but maybe let people know of potential peak demand (predictive so they can choose to drive slower or faster or take alternatives)

And there might be more that others can recommend. But my point is Tesla should do them all. Some of them are already happening, but I am not sure if they are prioritizing them correctly.

 

[Saghost]

Agreed.

They should get real time usage online, so drivers know the capacity of each SC while driving, as well as the % SOC of each vehicle there and expected wait time to full (and eventually tap into the car nav to guess how much the car is charging to and give ETAs to other travelers automatically). Then Tesla drivers can just go to the next exit, like we do now with oil cars. Hell, with oil cars, there's this app I always use called GasBuddy that tells me the cheapest gas every single time. I agree with the poster who said a public API that PlugShare can tap into would also make this wonderful, as well as any third party apps and web sites. Tesla doesn't have to code the best version first; they can let the marketplace of programmers do that, and eventually they'll upgrade the car to have as good as everyone else third partying it.

This isn't bad, and is certainly doable. I actually expect Tesla to go further than that, though. In due time, I expect that Tesla will build a map of upcoming charging sessions for cars on long distance trips ("reservations," if you will, which I think you were hinting at in the eventually part) - and then plan the trips of later cars around that map.

The car would default to some sort of "minimize total trip time" option in the Navigation screen and when that was selected, in areas where there are several supercharger string options it would automatically route you onto the less busy strings, charging higher on less busy stations to skip over busier ones.

Tesla has all of the information, the technical know-how, and the motivation (avoid bad PR like this, minimize total outlay while providing a high quality system) - so I consider a system like this more or less certain, eventually - it probably isn't their top priority right now (needs multiple overlapping strings to be useful, Model 3 has to be the top corporate priority,) but they'll really want to have it up and running before the Model 3 ramp dumps a few hundred thousand more cars onto the system.
Walter

 

[Mark Z]

...I expect that Tesla will build a map of upcoming charging sessions for cars on long distance trips ("reservations," if you will...)...

That makes me want to suggest two options:

Stay home for the holidays or rent an ICE vehicle for the holidays.

I don't even like to make hotel reservations when driving. Flexibility is the key to an enjoyable road trip.

 

[AEdennis]

Ok so let me summarize for those who don't want to read 19 pages of comments:

1) Tejon is congested during the Holidays.
2) The wait was 3 hours+
3) ButtonWillow is opening soon and can alleviate the congestions for those who can make it there
4) Tesla needs to install more stalls at Tejon to alleviate the congestions
5) Some are saying even ButtonWillow might not help because there are way too many teslas traveling during the holidays
6) No local owners are waiting that long just to get a free charge. So opportunity charging is not the problem here. Just Holiday rush!
7) Tesla knows who is charging and for how long at all their charging stations. They need to make app to notify users ahead of arrival or reroute users to different stations.
8) Tesla can help alleviate this problem by installing portable SC during these peak demands or install HPWC for those who plan to stick around long anyways.
9) Businesses should install CHadeMo or other chargers and help this problem. They can charge money too for those owners who do not want to wait. This solution will only work during peak demand period.
10) owners can drive slower to make it another destination. Most likely not possible for Tejon because there is a mountain nearby and temperature and climb can greatly affect range.
11) Tesla should consider battery swap for these high congestion areas.
12) Tesla owners should consider traveling and using SC outside of peak demand time.
13) Model X and 3 will further add to the problem
14) This is bad publicity for Tesla
15) Implement 130KW or 150KW charging to help get people out of the stalls faster.
16) Charge fee for charging at SC to help reduce demand

I think I got most of what people have suggested in no particular order. Feel free to add more or what not.

Here are my comments on this issues:

There should not be only 1 solution. The best approach is to implement most of the solutions. Make it a multi-modal solution!

A) Start with the easiest and cheapest one like the simple app showing how many stalls are occupied and for how long. Notify users when they are almost finish and finished charging. Also let them know how many stalls are occupied so if they see some occupied, they would be more inclined to move their car. This is only software and no need to change any hardware.

B) Using data analysis and such, plan the SC expansion properly to account for peak demand and alternatives. For instance San Juan Capistrano is always in high demand. But why? is it from local users or long distance traveler like at Tejon pass? Priority should be made to expand Tejon pass instead of San Juan because people at San Juan have plenty of alternatives, ChadeMo, L2, HPWC, etc, while Tejon have no alternatives. So do strategic expansion and take into account ALL variables, not just which ones are congested the most.

C) consider portable SC units. Tesla has them and "run" them when needed to help alleviate the problem.

D) Research faster charging or at least faster sustained charging to get people out faster.

E) Incentives users to travel outside the peak demand period whatever that maybe. Or the opposite, penalize users. I think the time penalty/incentive is enough, but maybe let people know of potential peak demand (predictive so they can choose to drive slower or faster or take alternatives)

And there might be more that others can recommend. But my point is Tesla should do them all. Some of them are already happening, but I am not sure if they are prioritizing them correctly.

That's almost all... But, let's not forget that for quite a few hours, the 101 Route was shut down for a rather big fire, so I'm sure that didn't help the situation either.

Tesla did design the N-S route to be redundant to each other... It doesn't mean that one route can handle all the travel if the other route is down.

 

[Saghost]

That makes me want to suggest two options:

Stay home for the holidays or rent an ICE vehicle for the holidays.

I don't even like to make hotel reservations when driving. Flexibility is the key to an enjoyable road trip.

That's why I hesitate to use the term - it creates unintended impressions like this. I wasn't suggesting any change to the Supercharger experience - it's not like a stall would be saved specifically for you instead of being first come first served.

The "reservations" I was describing would just be the computer predicting ahead that if you're charging at Tejon right now, you'll be charging at Harris in two hours or so - then adding that to the three cars they have charging at Gilroy right now and two more at Manteca and predicting that all six of you will be at Harris together in two hours. If they had an alternate station in Chaney Ranch, say, then it'd start suggesting that stop to some of the cars from the north instead of Harris Ranch.

You'd still be free to go to any station you wanted, and all stations would continue to be first come first served and free - but folks following the Navigation instructions would be quietly guided away from anticipated delays.
Walter

 

[Mark Z]

...The "reservations" I was describing would just be the computer predicting ahead...You'd still be free to go to any station you wanted, and all stations would continue to be first come first served and free - but folks following the Navigation instructions would be quietly guided away from anticipated delays...

Ah, "suggestions" is the word that comes to mind. Much better. No ICE car needed anymore, at least until Model III. :smile:

 

[Incredulocious]

Much more battery capacity. Many more charging stations. Both will come in time. (As will hundreds of thousands of more EV's on the road.)

And as someone who often travels to remote locations without infrastructure, or through cold or windy weather, or for long 4+ hour stretches at high range-eating speeds (70+ mph), I'm definitely looking forward to 350-400+ mile range.

 

[brkaus]

They likely would not do an API or web page for competitive reasons. That's a good bit of information to be made available to the world.

 

[spottyq]

I anticipate (hopefully after a full preliminary build out) a second, paid, tier of 'ultra-chargers'. They'd be higher power/rate for the next gen car or would max out current cars. Existing cars/customers would continue to get 'free supercharging for life' on the supercharger network but Telsa would be able to generate revenue from 'ultra charging'. Presumably new higher-rate-capable cars/trucks would be backwards compatible to free superchargers too. This ulta-charger model may allow 'franchising' of the charging by allowing a revenue stream for hosts. I suspect a standard package including significant battery storage would be needed to mitigate demand charges.

situations like Tejon would offer all Tesla drivers a choice, pay for ultra chargers or use the free superchargers.

Like a battery swap ? It does exactly what you describe.
Get a 100% charge in <5min for 40$ (=80/2).* I'd like to get more information about how that program is going from Tesla.

Also, in order to have substantially higher charging rates, Tesla needs to either (1) find a revolutionary battery technology (2) put bigger (more kWh) batteries in the cars (3) allow more battery degradation when fast charging. I don't see any of these alternatives happening in the near future.

*: These numbers just came out of my head, so they may be off.

 

[ohmman]

They likely would not do an API or web page for competitive reasons. That's a good bit of information to be made available to the world.

One other concern would be security/safety reasons. Making information public might make nefarious individuals pay attention to when a single car is charging at a remote/isolated Supercharger. The typical way to solve this would be to add some kind of noise to the data stream (in the style of differential privacy), but it's not a trivial issue.