brucet999
Active Member
More misinformation from Tom Randall, who should know better. Bolt is not an ICE vehicle with a battery installed. It was built from ground up as BEV.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Reports that Chevrolet Bolt is a threat to Model 3 are deeply uninformed
- Thread starter jbcarioca
- Start date
-
- Tags
- TSLA
brucet999
Active Member
erthquake
Active Member
I think the point is that GM missed a huge opportunity with their ground-up design. It looks and feels like an ICE econobox.
brucet999
Active Member
Probably appropriate for the market sector they target - local driver with no range anxiety, utilitarian, easy ingress/egress, hatchback for loading bulky items - sort of Leaf demographic. One might also ponder whether they selected that style so as not to cannibalize sales from their more upscale products.
Tesla has opted for sleek, stylish, fast and nimble - aimed at a whole different demographic.
Yep! Definitely.
I caught up on about 50 pages of posts in one day. I was getting lazy in my responses.I think that criticisms of the dealer behavior are legitimate criticisms of the car -- and we discovered that the OP *did* ask for the most knowledgeable person and still got this ridiculously uninformative unhelpful test drive.
As an owner of both a Model S and a Bolt, I am constantly dismayed by the Tesla zealot's stubborn refusal to admit the value in any vehicle other than their beloved Teslas. This sort of narrowminded arrogance is precisely what turns people off to Tesla. These people are doing more to hurt the brand, and EV adoption in general, than help it.
Yes! I am derided for a number of my comments, in particular that I did not do a comprehensive self-training program prior to going for a test drive. Still, for a car that sells for the prices the Bolt does one could expect something more refined than econobox aesthetics.
Probably something like that.
as for all the comments in defense of the Bolt I defer to superior knowledge, especially by @Jeff N and @brucet999 who corrected me on facts.
Frankly the reality of traditional NA dealerships and traditional NA auto company logic makes the success of the Bolt questionable. After all, nether GM Corporate nor many dealers actually want it.
I offer a contrast with my experience with my local BMW dealership regarding an i3. They scheduled a demo including quite detailed discussions, biased of course, but still fairly comprehensive. It seems that BMW is officially committed at an operational level to support those cars. They may have the well-documented high-level debates but they seem to be trying to support their model line, to the extent that there was a dedicated sales support for i3 and i8 in the dealerships I visited (one in US the other in Brazil). I did not buy either but they clearly are trying. Further their cars, like them or not, reflect their unique status as electric vehicles. Even Nissan made the Leaf obviously different.
Anyone who really wants to sell something different should try to sell the difference rather than trying to mask it. BEV's are not the same as ICE, so they can have and should have designs that allow those differences to appear. If they must use dealers they need to engage them.
GM could have made this a major success. I may be flamed again, but this smells like the Toronado/Eldorado or the Corvair to me. Both were technologically advanced, but both missed the point. The simply copied what others had, applied them well while forgetting why FWD and rear air-cooled engines existed in the first place. The current efforts at best reflect decent engineering applied to standard GM styling with a compliance mindset.
We'll certainly have major inroads from legacy companies. GM seems very unlikely to be one of those survivors. That will be sad. Ford seems completely absent too.
The next crop from VAG, Mercedes, BMW Group and others will be competitive and will be worthy competitors. I'm sure of that. I wonder what will happen at FCA now that Marchionne has discovered BEV.
I honestly feel sorry for the GM engineers. They made a good car and were sabotaged by the distribution side of the company. (As well as the production side who didn't design the factory to produce a significant number.)
But that's still a real phenomenon. It prevents the Bolt from competing -- even though it would be a highly successful car if they (a) made enough of them, (b) distributed them properly, and (c) consistently had either brochures which explained the car, or salespeople who understood and explained car. Failing on these three points renders it non-competive until they fix them.
I thought Bolt was going to be a big deal. Then they had this distribution fiasco.
It does seem like BMW, Mercedes, and Volkwsagen/Porsche/Audi are getting serious about electric cars now, including the distribution side. Though I don't know how competitive they can be while having most of their managment going to prison for the rest of their lives.
I think Hyundai is perhaps best-positioned; the Ioniq Electric got consistent rave reviews, they're actively ramping up production, increasing the battery size for next year's model, and I haven't heard the sort of complaints about dealer behavior which I have about GM dealers.
But that's still a real phenomenon. It prevents the Bolt from competing -- even though it would be a highly successful car if they (a) made enough of them, (b) distributed them properly, and (c) consistently had either brochures which explained the car, or salespeople who understood and explained car. Failing on these three points renders it non-competive until they fix them.
I thought Bolt was going to be a big deal. Then they had this distribution fiasco.
It does seem like BMW, Mercedes, and Volkwsagen/Porsche/Audi are getting serious about electric cars now, including the distribution side. Though I don't know how competitive they can be while having most of their managment going to prison for the rest of their lives.
I think Hyundai is perhaps best-positioned; the Ioniq Electric got consistent rave reviews, they're actively ramping up production, increasing the battery size for next year's model, and I haven't heard the sort of complaints about dealer behavior which I have about GM dealers.
brucet999
Active Member
@Xfan, would you care to post some basis for disagreeing with my post #21 in which I wrote that Bolt is not an ICE vehicle with a battery installed. It was built from ground up as BEV.
Following is a quote from Autoweek, January 7, 2016:
"The 2017 Chevrolet Bolt is GM’s first all-electric car since the EV1. It sits on its own new platform made specifically for an EV. Other EVs such as Chevy’s Spark EV are on what GM calls “legacy platforms,” existing gasoline-powered vehicles converted, for better or worse, to electric propulsion."
Read more: 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV first drive
Following is a quote from Autoweek, January 7, 2016:
"The 2017 Chevrolet Bolt is GM’s first all-electric car since the EV1. It sits on its own new platform made specifically for an EV. Other EVs such as Chevy’s Spark EV are on what GM calls “legacy platforms,” existing gasoline-powered vehicles converted, for better or worse, to electric propulsion."
Read more: 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV first drive
rxlawdude
Active Member
Really? So why does it have a big honking motor under the hood, in place of an ICE?
brucet999
Active Member
I had similar dealership experiences to yours. VW dealer had a guy who had gone to a school on the eGolf and knew it well. BMW dealer a block away had i8 and i3 in a separate BEV showroom with two sales people who were pretty knowledgable about them. Chevy dealer's salesman knew how to drive the Bolt and could properly show me how to use the shifter and regen paddle, but when asked how much range drops at freeway speeds, he declared "Range is 238 miles no matter how fast you drive." He also had no clue about 240V charging, much less fast DC.
As you point out, GM's effort does feel like compliance rather than a genuine effort at selling BEVs.
Mark Z
Active Member
If you want AM/FM and XM, then there isn't much choice. Model S or Bolt.
(No AM in Model X or Model 3. No XM in Model 3).
Press Kit | Tesla
(No AM in Model X or Model 3. No XM in Model 3).
Press Kit | Tesla
I've driven a lot of cars. From exotics, to land yachts, to hamster-powered gadgets. 1200hp to 36hp (remember the first Beetles?)
The Bolt is surprisingly roomy both front and rear and has far better access and egress than most cars. Good ergo.
The suspension is tight, but not harsh, understeer is held to acceptable levels, never scary or vague (cough Prius cough). Very stable. Oversteer can be induced, but not normally. Torque steer is better than most FWD cars with 200HP.
Like most EVs, it really shines in congested urban situations, where it is at home. Great visibility with the high head position, nimble, and snappy response. Love how they cut the front pillars so you can see through them. Nice touch.
It's one of the few EV's you can drive without using the brake pedal in traffic. The regen is strong enough for everything but panic stops.
Now...
The Model 3 is most likely going to kick it's ass hard. I have a hunch I'll enjoy driving a 3 a lot more than a Bolt. But the 'Bolt Sucks' carp is simply elitist BS. It's a good car. In fact, I'm not going to be too surprised if the 3 kicks the MS's arse in the corners when shod correctly. Weight is never a friend of handling. The 3 is likely to be new Sport Edition of the Tesla.
brucet999
Active Member
Where they place the motor has nothing to do with shared platform. My guess is that they stuck the motor, inverter, AC, and other stuff in front under a conventional-looking hood in order to gain maximum interior space in a pretty short car.
The Bolt has gotten fairly consistent rave reviews from auto journalists also. The increase in battery size for the Ioniq Electric is speculation. Various news outlets just assume that Hyundai is going give it a 200+ battery pack next year just like they make the same assumption for Nissan's new LEAF. We don't actually know that either of those cars will get 200+ mile packs for 2018. My guess is that neither car will although the LEAF may get a 60 kWh option for 2019. Just speculation....
You mostly haven't heard complaints about the Ioniq Electric and Hyundai dealers because very few people know that the car exists. They have only sold 157 of them in the US as of the end of June. We'll get the July sales update tomorrow.
I think it's too soon to tell how distribution will play out. People say it's terrible that the dealers in California have too many on the lot but then if they had immediately distributed them nationally people would be complaining that California dealers didn't have enough and were marking up the price....
I think you're being unfair about the factory production side of things. The factory makes the Bolt and Sonic on the same line that can make 90,000 cars a year. GM originally planned to make two Sonics for every Bolt, I think, but Sonic sales have been tanking due to super cheap gas prices. During the summer factory shutdown GM apparently did some updates that allow them to build Sonics and Bolts on a 1:1 ratio. If they really wanted to and they had enough battery packs they could probably build 2 Bolts for every Sonic or just Bolts. They could also add a second shift or even a third shift. I don't think there is really an assembly factory problem.
Just like the similarly-sized and positioned motor under the hood of every dual motor Tesla car?
What you see when you pop open the hood of the Bolt is not the motor. Instead you see the DC distribution box, the DC-DC voltage converter for the 12V circuits, the A/C compressor and heater, the 12V battery, etc. The Tesla Model 3 has those same components as well. Tesla just stretches out the hood longer so they can have room for their frunk and then they cover the other stuff with cosmetic plastic panels which make it difficult to service your own car.
Last edited:
rxlawdude
Active Member
While my guess is they adapted an ICE vehicle. In fact, the car is designed for flexible production by having some of the battery in the same position as the fuel tank in internal combustion engine-powered cars, and is made on the same assembly line as the Chevrolet Sonic.
rxlawdude
Active Member
Really, Jeff? Have you ever even looked at the frunk of a dual motor Tesla? Show me exactly where my 32 pound Thanksgiving turkey will fit under the hood of the Bolt, and you'll have some semblance of a point.
The frantic defense of the Bolt (and admittedly, a 230+ mile range EV is a good thing, but GM's commitment to EV is still tenuous) suggests some Chevy fanboism on your part.
I assume you are referring to the extra layer of battery modules that stack up underneath the rear seats. I'm not sure why that has anything to do with gas tank positioning. The designers obviously just wanted more battery storage and needed that area in order to fit a 60 kWh pack in a shorter wheelbase. The entire pack is installed as one piece so the overall size, shape, and mechanical attachment is not like a gas tank at all.
I see no relevance in the fact that it is built on the same assembly line as another car model that happens to be an ICE car. So what?
Why would I want to put a 32 pound turkey under the hood of my car? I'd much rather put it in the hatchback storage area along with the rest of my groceries where it can be protected from hot summer temperatures by the cabin A/C system.
And yes, I have looked at the frunk of a dual motor Tesla. I have even seen where the front motor and gear box are installed between the front wheels -- pretty much where the Bolt's motor and gearbox are installed.
I've corrected misinformation and added missing information. That doesn't make me a fanboi. It makes me a fan of exchanging verifiable factual information.
X Fan
Active Member
It's GM...notwithstanding how they "built" it, their company views this product under an ICE lens.....
Similar threads
- Article