Good work. Several stories have claimed the LEAF was top of the flops last year. Your post shows it was nowhere near.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Strongly disagree with this. Yes the Volt is seen as an EV, even though it is not, and as such it is seen as an over priced 40 mile range "EV", and all the negative press it has garnered has been used to paint EV's in a negative light. The Volt is a hybrid, by common and legal definition, and so should be lumped in with other hybrids. If the Volt had been marketed as the hybrid it really is from the beginning EV's as a whole would have gotten much less negative press. The Volt has not been a net gain for the EV movement and has in fact been the lightning rod for the anti-EV crowd to focus on.
I remember that guy. I almost do not even believe he bought the car. He has been a hanger-on-er around the Teslas at many of the car shows. There is something fishy with him but I really don't care enough to dig whats up behind his drama to dispute it.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Which makes it neutral? I'm confused.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
None of the politicians, that I know about.
But Dem activists/voters are generally not yet sold on EVs. They usually fall for the "shifting emissions" argument.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Interesting. The only "shifting emissions" comments I've had in person were from obvious GOP faithful.
Shifting emissions seem to be touted by those with an agenda, not so much GOP specific, but pro-oil folks, but the shifting emissions argument is repeated by people that simply are uneducated about it.
The whole "EV are flops, never work, blah, blah" comes straight from the GOP playbook of complete hypocrisy.
The whole "EV are flops, never work, blah, blah" comes straight from the GOP playbook of complete hypocrisy.
W.Petefish
Active Member
"Shifting Emissions" people are looking to capitalize on the fact that power plants are mostly, at least here, nat. gas and coal. The problems that I see with that argument is they think that making energy at a plant is the same as putting gas in your car, which is a very stupid argument as it assumes that the energy constants transfer exactly from one to another. That has been proven not to be the case in many ways, for example making electricity at a plant allows for tighter reigns on where the energy goes. At a power plant you use most of the heat generated to make power, this allows for better control on where "waste heat" goes. The simple internal combustion engine generates massive amounts of "waste heat" and thusly needs to be cooled losing precious energy to the outside air. The same engine also needs a transmission which reduces the power output of the engine by creating drag. Drag leads to more heat and the cycle continues along the drive train of most modern cars. Electric cars minimize the lost heat, thusly are vastly more efficient. (do the math if you don't believe me)
These same people don't take into account using wind and solar to power your car.
As I say to some, don't make an argument that you can't back up with fact.
All in all, it'll never pass as this is an election year and they don't want a black-eye from that just yet. (and this is from a moderate)
These same people don't take into account using wind and solar to power your car.
As I say to some, don't make an argument that you can't back up with fact.
All in all, it'll never pass as this is an election year and they don't want a black-eye from that just yet. (and this is from a moderate)
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
There are of course problems with the "shifting emissions" argument but there is some truth to it. Coal plants are around 30% efficient, then throw in line loss around 7%, charging loss around 10-15%, driving loss around 10%, and you are getting pretty close to ICE territory. The problem is that's not taking into account the long tailpipe connected to the ICE. People love to trace EV emissions back to the power plant, which is fair, but they forget to do the same with the gasoline that does not just magically appear in their tank.
NG plants have much higher efficiencies, up to 60%, but NG has a lot of emissions in it's extraction and processing. Unfortunately for most of the country additional night time loads such as EV charging is going to come from coal and NG for the next few decades. The best short term answer may be daytime charging from solar car parks.
NG plants have much higher efficiencies, up to 60%, but NG has a lot of emissions in it's extraction and processing. Unfortunately for most of the country additional night time loads such as EV charging is going to come from coal and NG for the next few decades. The best short term answer may be daytime charging from solar car parks.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
The easy rebuttal to the "long tailpipe" (aka "shifting emissions") argument is to note that refining a gallon of gasoline takes about 6kWh of electricity -- enough power to drive a Tesla about 20 miles. Once you put that power into the balance, EVs clearly come out ahead, particularly when you consider the heavy reliance on coal to generate power in Gulf Coast states, where a lot of US refineries are located.
State it like that, and the likely response will be "so EVs get an equivalent of 20 miles per gallon?!?"
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
There is a factual problem with this however. I believe that there is around 6kWh of energy used to refine a gallon of gasoline but only a small part of that is actually in the form of electricity, and grid purchased electricity is an even smaller part yet. I think in general conversation it's better to use the word energy if using the 6kWh figure, most people won't notice the difference and if you are challenged you are technically using correct terminology and can then specify that a portion of that is electricity from the grid as well as electricity generated on site.
I read an article, not fact checked, that the largest user of electricity in the los Angeles area is the El Segundo refinery. It would be interesting to get some actual numbers.
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