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Wow!!! that is an incredible amount of energy consumed just to manufacture a product!! I would venture to guess that no other industry comes close to using that much energy.
I've never heard an explanation of how the coal fired power plants can run clean and pollution free when they power our refrigerators, air conditioners and big screen TVs, but then they start spewing all sorts of nasty pollution into the air when you plug in an electric car. How does the power plant know?
I have yet to read anyone's complaints that refrigerators, air conditioners and big screen TVs are powered by coal, so somehow there is no pollution when those devices are plugged in. I've never seen anyone advocate that those devices would be better powered by gasoline either. Yet that complaint comes up in every discussion of electric cars, so somehow something very strange happens to the power plant when an electric car is plugged in.
Sometimes I suspect that the power plants actually produce pollution no matter what electrical device is plugged in, but that would make the power plant the problem, not the electric car, which doesn't fit into some people's agenda.
I have yet to read anyone's complaints that refrigerators, air conditioners and big screen TVs are powered by coal, so somehow there is no pollution when those devices are plugged in. I've never seen anyone advocate that those devices would be better powered by gasoline either. Yet that complaint comes up in every discussion of electric cars, so somehow something very strange happens to the power plant when an electric car is plugged in.
Sometimes I suspect that the power plants actually produce pollution no matter what electrical device is plugged in, but that would make the power plant the problem, not the electric car, which doesn't fit into some people's agenda.
Even if shifting pollution is a valid argument, to some extent I can just say "Who cares? It costs me 1/15th as much to pay for electricity as gas. I'll more than make up the difference between the Tesla and the gas car I would have bought." I think that's really the longer term way to win the argument is to make it irrelevant. If EV is a better car with cheaper overall cost of ownership, then that's the biggest game changer.
As for the EV credit cancellation, others have already noted the oil subsidies. If they want to cancel ALL such subsidies, that's fine by me, but otherwise it's hypocritical to go after just one.
As for the EV credit cancellation, others have already noted the oil subsidies. If they want to cancel ALL such subsidies, that's fine by me, but otherwise it's hypocritical to go after just one.
Also, typically the same people who use the shifting pollution argument also don't believe in climate change so I ask them to make up their mind. If they don't believe in climate change then why should they care? If we can shift the pollution to one source outside of where most people live, that should make them happy. Plus, it's much easier to control emissions at one source than one million tailpipes.
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You're perfectly correct, JRP3; thanks for the correction. We know, though, that none of that energy is coming from zero-carbon sources (except incidentally through the wires), so it's adding to CO2, etc.
DrTaras
R254->R725->S->X->M3->M3P-->R2020?
You answered your own question with the usage of one word, "should."
Don't confuse what "should" be in reality to what "is" in perception.
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle, but if she still wore dresses & make-up, she may be perceived to be my aunt!
The Volt is perceived to be an EV. You and I know better, but its tough to fight the perception so bad mouthing the Volt will be like shooting the EV community in the foot.
I've run out of cliches so I'll stop pontificating there.
From a 2004 paper out of the Berkeley National Labs:
(emphasis added)
The report also estimates that the California refineries used a total of 496 TBtu in 2001, of which 413 TBtu (83%) is from fuel or process steam, with the remaining energy coming from electricity (7,094 GWh). The paper does a very thorough job in explaining the refining process and the energy required at each phase.
DrTaras
R254->R725->S->X->M3->M3P-->R2020?
While an effective commercial, I think they stole it from the Plug-In America people.
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That's enlightening and disappointing. I'd been under the impression that every gallon of gas less was fairly neutral on the grid due to less energy used to make gas, but it's clearly very much not the case. That certainly lends credence to the anti-ev crowd that ev adoption has huge hidden costs in required grid upgrades. Now, you can argue the grid needs it anyway, but it makes the pro-ev argument less convincing.
Somehow I don't think P.I.A. is going to sue for plagerism! :smile: Besides, Nissan paid to run theirs in the middle of the NFL playoffs.
Fortunately, we don't have to "argue" about this point; good studies by independent entities show that PEVs will need little to no electricity infrastructure upgrades. See Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Impacts Assessment of Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles on Electric Utilities and Regional U.S. Power Grids: Part 1: Technical Analysis, 2007; Electric Power Research Institute, Transportation Electrification: A Technology Overview, July 2011; and Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Technical Challenges of Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles and Impacts to the US Power System: Distribution System Analysis, January 2010.
The quick summary is that PEVs, properly managed, can easily be absorbed into the system within the normal capex spending of utilities.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Yes - refineries are one of the largest single industry users of grid electricity - but only a small part of their energy comes from the grid. That shows the magnitude of energy used in refining.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I tend to include the Volt into the "plug-in" movement, rather than the "EV" or "electric car" movement (because there are still very significant differences between the two, that anyone who gives more than a cursory look will notice).
I think the main issue with the Volt is that it is made by GM and GM got bailed out, which is why it's a lightning rod for political opposition and negative press. I think the overall issue in terms of perception is that because the plug-ins market is not very diverse right now, people tend to lump failures of individual plug-ins with plug-ins as a whole (for example most people took the Volt fire issue as a reflection of all plug-ins even though the Leaf didn't have the same problem). That's why every individual failure tends to hurt the whole industry.
In which case you may as well get a CNG conversion and get the benefits of home recharging and significantly more kWh / $.
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
Nah. There is an abundant supply of electricity at night that is unused. Since the overwhelming majority of electricity in charging EVs is used at night (that's when you should charge 99.5% of the time), it's the perfect marriage to help balance the system.
By the time EV use becomes much more significant, cleaner sources (solar is a good example) will have become cheaper than coal/natural gas sources.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
For the whole refinery electricity discussion, we already had a very long thread about it:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/475-How-much-electricity-to-produce-gasoline/page13
Personally what I calculated is that US refineries use an average of 6-7.5 kWh of energy to make a gallon of gasoline.
US refinery uses an average of 0.31kWh of purchased electricity to make a gallon of gasoline.
Given the national average for natural gas plant efficiency is about 40%, I estimate that you can make about 6-7.5kWh * 40% = 2.4-3 kWh of electricity using the energy used to refine a gallon of gasoline.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...produce-gasoline?p=90733&viewfull=1#post90733
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/475-How-much-electricity-to-produce-gasoline/page13
Personally what I calculated is that US refineries use an average of 6-7.5 kWh of energy to make a gallon of gasoline.
US refinery uses an average of 0.31kWh of purchased electricity to make a gallon of gasoline.
Given the national average for natural gas plant efficiency is about 40%, I estimate that you can make about 6-7.5kWh * 40% = 2.4-3 kWh of electricity using the energy used to refine a gallon of gasoline.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...produce-gasoline?p=90733&viewfull=1#post90733
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