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Request for Auto-steer feature "manual lane-changing without chime".

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by JP68, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. JP68

    JP68 Member

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    Small intro: I'm driving a Tesla S in Netherlands and Belgium (Europe) for about 3 months, and really happy about it.

    One annoying thing though, which (imho) could be improved quite easily, is lane-changing while the car is on auto-steer.

    For USA readers: we have a 'keep right' rule on our motorways, rather then a 'keep your lane' rule.
    So I"m frequently changing lanes during my travels.
    Auto-steer is really nice as long as you can stay in your lane, but it's annoying during changing lanes.

    When set to 'auto-change lanes', it only works in 80% of the times during good conditions (good visibility, proper lane markings, not too much traffic) and when the conditions are less desirable the car often switches off auto-steer with a chime, and I need to change lanes manually.
    When 'auto-change lanes' is switched off, for every lane change I get this chime because auto-steer is disengaged (and again when I re-engage it after my manual lane change).

    It's an AP1 car, and I'm not looking for a fully auto-pilot system.
    What I'm asking:

    -> When the cars runs on auto-steer, and I use the Lane Change Flash (3 flashes of my turn signals), please REMOVE THE CHIME.
    Even better, let me do the lane change manually without counter-force, and automatically re-enable auto-steer when the car is back in a single lane.

    In other words: touching the Turn signals while the cars detects that I'm holding the steering wheel should temporarily disable auto-steer (for say 5 secs) without chimes.

    Thanks!
    JP
     
    • Like x 1
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  2. kort677

    kort677 Active Member

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    I don't know about euro spec cars but my US tesla does not chime when changing lanes using auto steer. is there a setting that you can use to turn off the chimes?
     
  3. JP68

    JP68 Member

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    Maybe I wasn't clear.. the car doesn't chime if it's able to complete the lane-change automatically.
    The thing is, many times it doesn't change lanes automatically (e.g. lane markings are not clear enough, or the response it too slow for the given traffic, or the overtake acceleration doesn't work properly...).
    In all these cases I get the chime because I steer it manually out of the auto-steer.. And another chime when I re-engage it.
     
  4. JP68

    JP68 Member

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  5. kirkbauer

    kirkbauer Member

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    Hmm, I've never had AP disengage on a lane change in the US....

    And yeah, US has a "keep right" rule as well but unfortunately it is rarely followed or enforced.
     
  6. NateB

    NateB Member

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    I think that others are misreading this post. The OP is intentionally disengaging to change lanes when the automatic lane change fails. He (I assume from the Avatar) has to do this frequently enough that he is looking for a way to manually change lanes without the constant disengaging and re-engaging (and accompanying chimes).

    I think I understand your concern, but it seems to me that your proposed solution would open up potential problems where the transfer of control between you and the car is unclear. Right now, there's one way to transfer steering control to the car (double-pull), and you get a chime to tell you if you succeeded or failed. In your scenario, how does the car know when to cede control to you? (how much pressure?) How do you know that you have taken control? (wouldn't want to do it by accident) And once you have control and move toward the next lane, how does the car know when to take back control, and how does it communicate to you if it's not ready? It may seem obvious or intuitive to you when is the appropriate time for the car to cede or retake control without a clear command from the driver, but I suspect that it would be very challenging to program this. It might even be more difficult than programming the fully automatic lane change.
     
    • Like x 2
  7. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    I guess his problem is the failure of automatic lane change. This is odd because I don't think I have ever had a failure when setting an automatic lane change. Occasionally there is a delay because a car is in the lane but this clears as soon as I gain enough clearance from the other car.
    I wonder why he is having these failures? Is he trying to change lanes when another car is in the way?
    I've never had the car switch off autosteer when changing lanes. Worst case it just waits until the target lane is clear. Is he pushing the steering wheel to force the lane change and thereby disengaging the autosteer?
    I do think we need to keep the chime to signal autosteer on/off.
    RE: keep to right rule... we have this in California but unfortunately it is widely ignored and it drives me crazy. Often I can make the best time by passing (on the right) all of the people "parked" in the left lane which is legal but not as safe.
     
  8. gavine

    gavine Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast

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    I have always assumed that the only reason they implemented auto lane change is because, without it, you would need to disengage AP every time you switched lanes. How else would you change lanes?
     
  9. bishoppeak

    bishoppeak Member

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    I think the problem is doing the lane change with the momentary signal technique. I have to hold the stalk in detent until most of the lane change is complete.
     
  10. JP68

    JP68 Member

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    Yes, I'm male, thus a 'he'.
    I do know how to use Auto-lane change (push the signal stalk fully, apply gentle force to the steering wheel and wait for the car to move.
    In ideal (low traffic) conditions, it works in 80% of the times, but even then it fails sometimes (not sure why, maybe lane markings not clear enough).

    "How else would you change lanes?" Exactly, there no other way right now..

    I wonder why an additional way to change lanes manually (which should probably be an extra option besides the current lane-change options) is more difficult to program than fully auto lane change.

    Let me explain the situation a bit.
    For range-purposes, I stick to the speed limit (120 km/h, 75 mph).
    ACC on, auto-steer on, hands on the wheel (smooth, not applying pressure)
    I stay on the right lane, to give space to people who like to drive faster.
    But often there are truck keeping about 80 km/h, 50 mph.

    A manual driver will anticipate, keeping an eye on the mirrors and wait for space on the left lane.
    Where possible, for a smooth ride, I keep my speed and as soon as it's safe to move lanes I signal and I go.

    Auto-lane change will start looking for space the moment I signal (which is slow, because a manual driver already did that before).
    Further, the ACC will sometimes slow down heavily (even if the car is already half-way it's auto lane-change!!) to match the speed of the truck on the right lane..
    Maybe it has something to do with the timing of my signal.
    I do that when it's safe to go (which is exactly the reason why many cars have the 'Lane Change Flash'), not when you start looking for a safe moment to change lanes.
    You may confuse / scare other drivers when you signal too early.
    And for me, in an AP1 car, I find it dangerous to signal early because the signal is part of my command to the car to auto-change lanes, which I only want to give if I feel it's safe to do so.

    I honestly can't see how an AP1 car, with the limited camera's and processing power, will ever be able to fully automatically change lanes in busy traffic conditions.
    Basically you need to keep your eye on the positions and speeds of your own car, the slow car in front of you, the car in the left lane who just passed you and the upcoming next car in the left lane.

    "In your scenario, how does the car know when to cede control to you?"
    Similar to the current driver actions: signal and apply gentle pressure the left / right.
    I suppose the software is able to distinguish the difference between an internal request for steering (ie driver applying pressure), and an external (curved roads, side wind etc etc) which all result in a force to be applied to the front wheels.

    "how does the car know when to take back control"
    I suppose when the car detects when you're in the middle of the next lane.

    Probably still a challenge to program.. but I believe it would be a great addition for me.
     
  11. BerTX

    BerTX Active Member

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    I think the problem is in your interpretation of how the auto lane change works. It sounds like you are not holding the turn signal long enough. It also sounds like you think the steering wheel requires some pressure to signal the lane change -- it does not.

    When you want to change lanes, hold the turn signal at the partially on (not fully engaged) until the car completes the lane change, then release the turn signal stalk. Do not put any extra pressure on the steering wheel.
     
  12. kort677

    kort677 Active Member

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    there is one simple solution, to change lanes in traffic where you might need to be "aggressive" just disengage the AP system and manually make the lane change, then reengage the AP system.
    AP is a misnomer, I look at the system as an interactive driving assist system.
     
  13. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    I think you're making it too complicated.
    For auto lane change, don't put pressure on the wheel. The car will turn automatically. Also, it will slow down when you get too close to a car in front even if you're changing lanes (to prevent a crash).
    Just hold the turn signal and let the car change lanes. If there is space, it will change on the third blink of the signal which is the right amount of warning.
     
    • Like x 1
  14. JP68

    JP68 Member

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    Thanks, maybe it's correct that I make things too complicated.
    I'm overseas now but I try the tips when I'm back home.
     
  15. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    The way for lane keeper nanny to remain quiet in other cars is to have the signal engaged as you're changing lanes in that direction.

    Surprised if Tesla would chime over-top of a signaling sound... The signal sound is enough notice that lane change is intended.

    But the way Tesla works is full of wonder sometimes, and can change next week.
     
  16. Reciprocity

    Reciprocity Active Member

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    Love this idea. If you dont have auto lane change enabled with blinker, or you could just use the option where you hold the blinker to manually change lanes and fully engage the blinker to have auto lane change, or vice verse.
     
  17. dknisely

    dknisely Member

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    +100 for that feature!!! I think Auto-steer would greatly benefit by allowing partial override and auto-return to auto-steer (much like touching the accelerator speeds up, and then returns to Auto-steer with the original speed). I'm also talking about AP2, but same applies to AP1. I think they could create a suitable API to avoid driver confusion.
     
  18. SlyWombat

    SlyWombat Member

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    Two issues here, 1/ auto lane change does not really work well, 2/ the chime notification when disengage/engage.

    My passengers are sick of hearing that chime, there are many times that I have to disengage autosteer, and when I use the controls to declare this, like cruise control on any other vehicle, you don't need a loud chime a visual would be fine, same with engaging, dont need the chime.

    I also have the same issue with the auto lane changing not working well, sure if there is only one car in front of you and nothing else and you signal 20 cars in advance it will be smooth, even then I have had it move halfway into the other lane and tap the brakes and wiggle back and forth before finally committing. If there are other vehicles, the behaviour outlined that it will see the vehicle and start to brake making the people behind panic happens, but you can apply the accelerator to push the car forward without disengaging auto-steer.
     
  19. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    The chime sucks. Tesla made it more annoying trying to solve "mode confusion", which mostly just made it more annoying and did nothing for mode confusion. Tesla does not have the engineering talent they say they have. This one is just icing on the cake.

    edit - and I'm not through ranting. This whole thing is a junior engineer mistake when the most senior and most talented should have been on the case.
     
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  20. BernieVanWelt

    BernieVanWelt New Member

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    It is simple!

    When the car does not automatically change lane, help the car by using the blinker to tell which lane you want to go to.
    It will then check and do it, if safe, without leaving autopilot mode

    :)
     

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