Requesting Advice to Decide Between New S 60D vs Used 85D

[hybridbear]

Hi! My Focus Electric lease ends August 15th and I've decided that I want to get a Model S to replace it. I've been driving electric for a few years now, and with only one car I need a long distance vehicle.

I have narrowed down my search to two options. I'd like advice from the group on which is a better deal.

1) New S 60D
I placed an order last Thursday for a new S 60D, so I only have a couple more days to cancel & receive a refund of my $2500.

Pros

• New headlights
• New front fascia
• HEPA filter & Bioweapon Defense Mode
• Built in console
• LTE data connection
• Lower insurance cost
• Full 4/50k warranty

Cons

• Higher upfront purchase cost
• Have to wait for tax credit savings
• Lower range
• Single charger
• Would not be delivered until mid-September, would have about a 1 month gap without a vehicle

2) Used S 85D
There is an owner looking to sell a used 85D that I have been in contact with.

Pros

• Longer range
• Twin chargers
• No wait to realize tax credit savings (smaller loan financed)
• Lower up front purchase price
• Available right away

Cons

• Only about 32 months left on warranty (I will run out of months before I run out of miles)
• 3G data connection (I'd likely spend the money to upgrade to LTE at some point)
• Missing newest features (new front end, new headlights, HEPA filter & Bioweapon Defense Mode, built in console)

The used 85D is cheaper than the new 60D, however, it will have 16 months less bumper-to-bumper warranty. Being the second owner, I also believe that I would not be able to purchase the ESA. I don't want to ask the first owner to do that & transfer it to me because I'm not sure it would be worth the expense.

Questions for the group:

1. How much value would you place on the extra 16 months of warranty with the new 60D?
2. How much value would you place on the new lights & the new front fascia?
3. How much value would you place on the new HEPA filter system & Bioweapon Defense Mode?
4. How much value would you place on having an 85 kWh pack versus a 60 kWh pack, considering that Superchargers are still a bit lacking in the upper midwest & that I want to take lots of road trips?

I'm also a bit concerned about the timing of when AP 2.0 hardware will be released. I expect that the software will not be released for at least 6 months, but I'm concerned about ordering a new car & just missing out on AP 2.0 hardware. This concern makes me lean strongly toward the used car. Then if AP 2.0 hardware comes out this winter, I won't be as annoyed because I will have bought a car that was built in early 2015, as opposed to one built in fall 2016.

I don't want to post how much cheaper I calculate that the used 85D is compared to the new 60D, because I don't want to skew the numbers. I'd just like to hear suggestions on at what point is the 85D a better deal. How much cheaper does it need to be than the new 60D to make it the right car to buy.

Also, I'm curious about comments regarding the new headlights versus the old headlights. How much better are the new headlights? I really like the looks of them, but I'm not often looking at my own headlights, so how they look to oncoming drivers isn't really that important. How much improvement in seeing the road do the new headlights provide? I watched Bjorn's video about the new "dynamic LED turning lights". I'm curious if there's any info comparing the two styles of headlights.

Thank you everyone!

 

[twonius]

If you're getting that good of a deal on an 85D I'd go for it. I went with an S60 after seeing early 2013 S85s going for mid to high 50's since February while my 60 will be about 62 after tax credits. that's not enough of a delta to make me want a 3 year older car once you consider better financing and a longer expected lifespan.

The 85 may have a larger battery, but it's also heavier so you give up some of the range advantage, and today's 60 is really a 75 you just can't range charge, so less anxiety about battery degradation. I live where there's plenty of charging and mild weather though, so your mileage may vary. In Minnesota I'd probably lean towards the bigger battery car.

Normally i'd only buy pre-owned but the used market's been so hot for these cars that it just didn't make sense to go with an early car.

I'm currently taking the bus while my car is in production so I would've needed to buy something in the interim if I'd decided to wait until the winter but turning over a car in that short of a time period would've cost a few thousand anyways and i"m not sure prices will collapse in the next 5 months.

I feel your FOMO about AP2.0 but it's like smartphones with these cars, as soon as AP2.0 comes out people will start talking about ventilated seats or some sort of full redesign they're waiting for. If you're happy with what the car is now, be happy with that. Even with no AP these are great cars.

 

[Funky]

I don't think you will receive a tax credit for a used electric vehicle? Normally this only applies to new vehicles as the original purchaser will already have claimed the federal and state credits. I think 1 state offers tax credit for used vehicles but that's it. Make sure you factor this into your cost/benefit analysis

 

[p85lover/owner]

Would you mind sharing how much the 85d you are looking at is?

 

[Shortmanz]

I bought a used 2013 85 almost 2 years ago - about 3-4 months before Autopilot was announced. Sometimes I wish I had AP, but I doubt I would really use it that much since my daily commute is only 11 miles each way and only half of that is on the Interstate. I initially really wanted dual chargers, but my car has a single charger and I have yet to run into a situation where dual chargers would have been useful.

Is the insurance cost really that different between the two cars?

I am not sure how putting $$$ to your questions will help you decide, but here's my two cents worth:

1. I would say the value of the warranty is about $1000/yr, so maybe $1400-1500 for the extra 16 months.
2. I really like the new fascia, but am happy with the headlights on my 2013, so maybe $1500 for the fascia, $0 for the lights.
3. The HEPA filter isn't worth $3000 to me, but I do like having a power lift gate and the ambient lighting. I would probably spring for the the $3K convenience package anyways, but I do feel that it is overpriced.
4. I like the range of my 85 and would not get a 60 for two reasons: Range and Resale value. The good news is that a new 60 can be upgraded to a 75 later, so there is something to be said for getting a 60 now with an option to upgrade later. If I had to get one today, I would have a hard time deciding between a 75 or a 90.

Extended warranty - At the time I bought my car, I was under the impression that I could purchase the ESA within 30 days of the 4yr/50K warranty expiring, but that appears to not be the case any more. I am slightly worried about owning an early VIN number out of warranty. I think Tesla has learned a lot and the the newer cars from late 2014 - 2016 will have much better reliability.

 

[xav-]

I don't own a model s so my opinion is not as valuable as many people here, but I am considering buying one.

Honestly after having read some of the stories with reliability (especially with older models), the very high cost of repairs and the high resale value, I would personally feel a lot safer buying new.

At a minimum if you buy used you should have the original owner buy the ESA

 

[twonius]

I bought a used 2013 85 almost 2 years ago - about 3-4 months before Autopilot was announced. Sometimes I wish I had AP, but I doubt I would really use it that much since my daily commute is only 11 miles each way and only half of that is on the Interstate. I initially really wanted dual chargers, but my car has a single charger and I have yet to run into a situation where dual chargers would have been useful.

Is the insurance cost really that different between the two cars?

I am not sure how putting $$$ to your questions will help you decide, but here's my two cents worth:

1. I would say the value of the warranty is about $1000/yr, so maybe $1400-1500 for the extra 16 months.
2. I really like the new fascia, but am happy with the headlights on my 2013, so maybe $1500 for the fascia, $0 for the lights.
3. The HEPA filter isn't worth $3000 to me, but I do like having a power lift gate and the ambient lighting. I would probably spring for the the $3K convenience package anyways, but I do feel that it is overpriced.
4. I like the range of my 85 and would not get a 60 for two reasons: Range and Resale value. The good news is that a new 60 can be upgraded to a 75 later, so there is something to be said for getting a 60 now with an option to upgrade later. If I had to get one today, I would have a hard time deciding between a 75 or a 90.

Extended warranty - At the time I bought my car, I was under the impression that I could purchase the ESA within 30 days of the 4yr/50K warranty expiring, but that appears to not be the case any more. I am slightly worried about owning an early VIN number out of warranty. I think Tesla has learned a lot and the the newer cars from late 2014 - 2016 will have much better reliability.

True but this car sounds like it would be waaay under market value. So if it turns out you want to get out of it you could probably own it for a year for almost no depreciation. The best Tesla is a free Tesla as long as they're both under warranty.

 

[ModelX]

I think larger range/bigger battery is huge; but I don't know your routine, so it might not be as big of deal for you. Twin chargers add a lot of flexibility in some areas in the US. I would lean towards used if the 85 has color/interior that you like.

 

[will7]

Has anyone ask if the current MS 60 is covered by the 5/125K miles warranty or 5/Unlimited? I know technically it's a 75kWh battery but just wanted to double check.

From the New Vehicle Warranty...

Your vehicle’s Battery and Drive Unit are covered under this Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty for a period of 8 years, unlimited miles/km, with the exception of the 60 kWh battery which is covered for 8 years or 125,000 miles/200,000 km, whichever comes first.

 

[nexsuperne101]

So with the point above on the 60KWH, if I choose to unlock mine to 75KWH, do I then get the unlimited mileage warranty?

 

[Brass Guy]

I'd go for the 85 if it`s less expensive than the 60 after its rebate.

1 Warranty difference - very little value since it sounds like you're looking at a 2015.

2 Refresh front/lights - I wouldn't put much value there either. But it's an appearance issue so really you have to decide the value.

3 HEPA - none, I wouldn't use it.

4 Battery size - $8000 since the original upgrade price was $10000 less $2000 for super charging.

Mine is a 2013 S85. It's my understanding that a 2015 is a much more mature car. Also consider that in general the majority of warranty claims are usually early in a vehicle`s life.

 

[David_Cary]

I encourage people to get a 60 all day long. But - an 85D for less. That is hard to beat.

Sure there is a warranty cost of $2000 (my opinion).

Twin charger - worth roughly $500 to me. I have been at one or two of these but always when I didn't need miles or it was a destination setting so it didn't matter much. Even that $500 is high. Chademo is much more prevalent for me - and that is a bit faster than twin chargers.

LTE - why? Have you read the reviews? The bottleneck is the processor mostly not the cell connection.

Resale probably better on the 85D despite the refresh but hard to say.

So $2500 is my delta. But I also live in a warm area. For you, get the bigger battery.

 

[Alex Van Ness]

My wife and I just had to make this exact decision. After weighing all the pros and cons just as you have, we went with a late 2015 85D with very low mileage. We have owned it for just a few days now but could not be happier! We like to take road trips so the range was a big factor.

 

[GSP]

If you plan to venture into areas with no Superchargers and very few 240 V charging options, then I would recommend the 85. Otherwise it is hard to beat the value of the new 60.

Good Luck with your decision.

GSP

 

[hybridbear]

I don't think you will receive a tax credit for a used electric vehicle? Normally this only applies to new vehicles as the original purchaser will already have claimed the federal and state credits. I think 1 state offers tax credit for used vehicles but that's it. Make sure you factor this into your cost/benefit analysis

Correct. Even after factoring this in the used 85D is cheaper than the new 60D with almost the same features, except as noted in the first post.

Would you mind sharing how much the 85d you are looking at is?

Not until after I have a contract in place to buy it. The seller & I are still negotiating. I don't want someone to step in & offer more than I am to steal the car away.

Is the insurance cost really that different between the two cars?

I will shop around between companies later, but right now getting a quote with Geico (my current carrier) the 85D is about $400 per year more expensive to insure than the 60D. I'm not sure why Geico would calculate that way, but it's what they do based on the VIN of the 85D I'm looking at & the VIN of a new 60D that I saw at the Eden Prairie store.

I am not sure how putting $$$ to your questions will help you decide, but here's my two cents worth:
1. I would say the value of the warranty is about $1000/yr, so maybe $1400-1500 for the extra 16 months.
2. I really like the new fascia, but am happy with the headlights on my 2013, so maybe $1500 for the fascia, $0 for the lights.
3. The HEPA filter isn't worth $3000 to me, but I do like having a power lift gate and the ambient lighting. I would probably spring for the the $3K convenience package anyways, but I do feel that it is overpriced.
4. I like the range of my 85 and would not get a 60 for two reasons: Range and Resale value. The good news is that a new 60 can be upgraded to a 75 later, so there is something to be said for getting a 60 now with an option to upgrade later. If I had to get one today, I would have a hard time deciding between a 75 or a 90.

Fortunately, the car does have the power liftgate & automatic high beams. Those are two features that I want. I have spent time checking out the ambient lighting at night & it's not as good as the ambient lighting that I have in my Focus Electric, so skipping that is no big deal to me. I was thinking a minimum of $1000 value for the extra warranty period, thanks for confirming that.

I think larger range/bigger battery is huge; but I don't know your routine, so it might not be as big of deal for you. Twin chargers add a lot of flexibility in some areas in the US. I would lean towards used if the 85 has color/interior that you like.

The 85D is the exact color combination that I would have ordered new myself.

I'd go for the 85 if it`s less expensive than the 60 after its rebate.

1 Warranty difference - very little value since it sounds like you're looking at a 2015.

2 Refresh front/lights - I wouldn't put much value there either. But it's an appearance issue so really you have to decide the value.

3 HEPA - none, I wouldn't use it.

4 Battery size - $8000 since the original upgrade price was $10000 less $2000 for super charging.

Mine is a 2013 S85. It's my understanding that a 2015 is a much more mature car. Also consider that in general the majority of warranty claims are usually early in a vehicle`s life.

I'm leaning the same way. How much of the increased HVB cost carries through the years in terms of resale value?

I encourage people to get a 60 all day long. But - an 85D for less. That is hard to beat.

Sure there is a warranty cost of $2000 (my opinion).

Twin charger - worth roughly $500 to me. I have been at one or two of these but always when I didn't need miles or it was a destination setting so it didn't matter much. Even that $500 is high. Chademo is much more prevalent for me - and that is a bit faster than twin chargers.

LTE - why? Have you read the reviews? The bottleneck is the processor mostly not the cell connection.

Resale probably better on the 85D despite the refresh but hard to say.

So $2500 is my delta. But I also live in a warm area. For you, get the bigger battery.

I didn't know that the LTE system has poor reviews. That is an upgrade that I wouldn't do just to the sake of doing it, I was thinking I would experience 3G and then decide if I want to upgrade to LTE. My concern with 3G is coverage area more than speed. 2G (what my Focus Electric uses for its modem) is being turned off within the next few months.

Verizon has already begun phasing out their 3G service.
4G or Bust: Verizon Begins Phasing Out 3G - NBC News

AT&T (the Tesla's data provider) has also indicated that a phaseout of 3G will begin within the next few years.
The End is Coming: AT&T Reminds Customers About Upcoming 2G Network Shutdown

For that reason, I consider the cost of upgrading to LTE to be part of the cost of buying a 3G Tesla. I think it will become necessary within the next 2-3 years in order to keep the data connection functioning well.

Thanks for your input!!

 

[hybridbear]

What about Next Gen seats in the new 60D versus the Nappa leather seats in the 85D? Are the Next Gen seats really that much better?

 

[Mickie]

So with the point above on the 60KWH, if I choose to unlock mine to 75KWH, do I then get the unlimited mileage warranty?

You get the unlimited mileage warranty even if you don't choose to unlock as it's technically a 75. Same goes for free SC usage.

 

[Kensiko]

If you have the time, please check CPO ones. They will give you an additional 4 years bumper to bumper warranty. So no question here, CPO is a used Tesla without much cons.

https://ev-cpo.com/

 

[hybridbear]

If you have the time, please check CPO ones. They will give you an additional 4 years bumper to bumper warranty. So no question here, CPO is a used Tesla without much cons.

My original intention was to purchase a CPO Model S for this exact reason. However, the store informed me that there are ZERO CPO cars with autopilot. They said that all autopilot cars that are traded in are being put into the Service Loaner fleet & that the non-AP cars from the loaner fleet are then being sold as CPO. Thus CPO & autopilot don't mix right now. I also asked about inventory cars, but there was nothing that met my specifications without being thousands of dollars more expensive.

 

[Kensiko]

I see, if autopilot is a requirement for you I would get a new model S to make sure you have the latest sensors. And check the model X, it was just released in a 60 kWh version.