[Resolved] Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S

[GoBlue88]

I'm kind of shocked that people would argue in support of the restriction of freedom of speech.

Not a single person here has done that. Like many people in this country, you clearly don't understand what the first amendment protection of speech really means. As someone said earlier, that protection only covers government restriction of speech.

Virtually anyone else can legally "restrict" your speech and/or make you suffer some consequences for it. Your parents, your teachers, certainly your employer, the movie theater owner, website administrators, etc. Supporting this in no way means people are supporting the restriction of freedom of speech as covered by 1A.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

We got a bunch of lawyers on this site. Technically you are probably right. But seriously, are you telling me you don't take your freedom to speak freely everywhere you go, and expect it to be respected? If you went into a movie theatre and you started bad-mouthing the movie, and the manager came and told you to shut up, would you? You're in his theatre - did you give up your rights? I don't give up mine when I log into this forum or anywhere else, whether I legally have them or not. If TMC's official website policy is to censor the member's speech based on favoritism to Tesla and not public decency (which is a reason I think they should), that's what I need to hear! Is it? They changed this thread's title to something complementary to Tesla, even though it was posted by me, and I'm never going to be happy being treated the way the Houston Service Center did me. It was a greasy car-dealership-service-center feeling I got from my last visit. All other (earlier) visits have been better. I'm concerned service is heading the wrong way and that was the whole point of me making this post.

Ps Bonnie is right, I do like being dramatic. I feel good.

You are on private property here. You have no reasonable right to privacy or freedom of speech on someone else's private property. TMC is running a network, and as such, is responsible for maintaining and administering that network as it sees fit. TMC has every right to control the content that is broadcast over its network. If you can't accept this, then maybe you should go elsewhere. Sorry.

 

[deonb]

Virtually anyone else can legally "restrict" your speech and/or make you suffer some consequences for it. Your parents, your teachers, certainly your employer, the movie theater owner, website administrators, etc. Supporting this in no way means people are supporting the restriction of freedom of speech as covered by 1A.

And interestingly, most of those saying your speech can legally be restricted on here, were emphatically against Raffy Roma's idea of restricting speech when it comes to blocking the media from taking a fear mongering, anti-science position:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/36961-Free-Speech-and-Climate-Change-Skeptics-Deniers

A complex society we have.

 

[JMG]

Not a single person here has done that. Like many people in this country, you clearly don't understand what the first amendment protection of speech really means. As someone said earlier, that protection only covers government restriction of speech.

Virtually anyone else can legally "restrict" your speech and/or make you suffer some consequences for it. Your parents, your teachers, certainly your employer, the movie theater owner, website administrators, etc. Supporting this in no way means people are supporting the restriction of freedom of speech as covered by 1A.

This. Such a common misconception.

 

[AnOutsider]

I get both sides. This is a private forum and so the rules must be followed (and the owners/mods/admins have final say in the end). At the same time this is a community that's made up of its members. I certainly wouldn't want to have a thread or post I created changed to reflect a tone or intention that I didn't... well, intend, and I can understand how that may have upset the OP. The title has now been changed and all should be well.

Let's just stop the finger wagging and accusations and move on, please.

 

[Electricfan]

Can anybody look at the title of this thread and say the moderator isn't mocking me?

My original title complained of poor service from Tesla, now its a joke mocking the thread. I'm ok with it, as I can't edit the title myself and make it something reasonable, and apparently I hurt the moderator's feelings so he retaliated. Fine.

But free speech we don't have on this site. The thread titles are perhaps in a way more important than the content of the thread, as people read through them to see what they want to read further about. And we can't edit them - the "moderators" do.

Finally, the enthusiastic response of "YOU DON'T HAVE FREE SPEECH HERE AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE" is very sad. Just sad. You people need to look in the mirror and ask why you're so happy about NOT having the right to free speech on this forum. But I'm not leaving unless of course I'm "banned". So if you don't like my opinions, I'm sure you can avoid reading my posts. I encourage you to do so.

 

[AnOutsider]

Can anybody look at the title of this thread and say the moderator isn't mocking me?

My original title complained of poor service from Tesla, now its a joke mocking the thread. I'm ok with it, as I can't edit the title myself and make it something reasonable, and apparently I hurt the moderator's feelings so he retaliated. Fine.

But free speech we don't have on this site. The thread titles are perhaps in a way more important than the content of the thread, as people read through them to see what they want to read further about. And we can't edit them - the "moderators" do.

Finally, the enthusiastic response of "YOU DON'T HAVE FREE SPEECH HERE AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE" is very sad. Just sad. You people need to look in the mirror and ask why you're so happy about NOT having the right to free speech on this forum. But I'm not leaving unless of course I'm "banned". So if you don't like my opinions, I'm sure you can avoid reading my posts. I encourage you to do so.

Maybe you're seeing the old title, but I changed it to "[Resolved]Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S" which is your original title with Resolved at the beginning. Not sure if that's what you're seeing, but if you are, I see no mocking there.

 

[Max*]

Finally, the enthusiastic response of "YOU DON'T HAVE FREE SPEECH HERE AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE" is very sad. Just sad. You people need to look in the mirror and ask why you're so happy about NOT having the right to free speech on this forum.

Actually you don't have free speech in a lot of places. You can't yell bomb on an airplane, you can't yell fire in a movie theater, etc.

I've only known a few forums where the user truly has "free speech". Most of them are censored at least to some extent (no cursing, etc.).

 

[Electricfan]

Maybe you're seeing the old title, but I changed it to "[Resolved]Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S" which is your original title with Resolved at the beginning. Not sure if that's what you're seeing, but if you are, I see no mocking there.

Yes, I was seeing the old title. Thanks for changing it back.

I've asked repeatedly and gotten no answer, so this will be my last attempt (at least today): who owns this site? Has he/she/they stated an official purpose or policy guiding posts and threads and comments? I would love to know who started the site and what their thinking is or was.

 

[AnOutsider]

Yes, I was seeing the old title. Thanks for changing it back.

I've asked repeatedly and gotten no answer, so this will be my last attempt (at least today): who owns this site? Has he/she/they stated an official purpose or policy guiding posts and threads and comments? I would love to know who started the site and what their thinking is or was.

I'd take that out of thread and use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the site.

 

[EVenthusiast]

Yes, I was seeing the old title. Thanks for changing it back.

I've asked repeatedly and gotten no answer, so this will be my last attempt (at least today): who owns this site? Has he/she/they stated an official purpose or policy guiding posts and threads and comments? I would love to know who started the site and what their thinking is or was.

TOS is linked at the bottom of every page. dsacks6 started the forums.

If you use common sense, just like you would on many other forums, you won't run into any issues. You started the thread with a defensive attitude (Tesla defenders - go for it!!! LOL!), so you can't be surprised you received negative responses.

We WANT to hear about problems and glitches, as it 1) prevents others from experiencing the same issue or 2) help each other address these issues (just look at the many amazing threads doing crazy things such as rebuilding a salvage vehicle).

While I don't necessarily agree with title/post editing activities (with exceptions such as a For Sale forum, or if OP requested it), you need to start researching what freedom of speech really means.

But look at the bigger picture This is just text, the result of 1s and 0s powered by electrons, so it's way too easy to misinterpret someone's 'tone', or be too paranoid/defensive when posting.

 

[deonb]

You people need to look in the mirror and ask why you're so happy about NOT having the right to free speech on this forum.

Or alternatively, look at all other forums out there which isn't as heavily moderated, and ask yourself whether you think that really makes things better or worse.

I for one, really appreciate the active job that the moderators are performing on this site.


This isn't the only Tesla forum on the web. You have choices. You don't even need a Tesla specific forum - you can smear Tesla in every one of a thousand other articles out there on general news organization sites, and say whatever you like. Heck, you can even post a full article on Seeking Alpha - they love to publish anything negative about Tesla.

This forum however, has moderators.

 

[MsElectric]

Can anybody look at the title of this thread and say the moderator isn't mocking me?

My original title complained of poor service from Tesla, now its a joke mocking the thread. I'm ok with it, as I can't edit the title myself and make it something reasonable, and apparently I hurt the moderator's feelings so he retaliated. Fine.

But free speech we don't have on this site. The thread titles are perhaps in a way more important than the content of the thread, as people read through them to see what they want to read further about. And we can't edit them - the "moderators" do.

Finally, the enthusiastic response of "YOU DON'T HAVE FREE SPEECH HERE AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE" is very sad. Just sad. You people need to look in the mirror and ask why you're so happy about NOT having the right to free speech on this forum. But I'm not leaving unless of course I'm "banned". So if you don't like my opinions, I'm sure you can avoid reading my posts. I encourage you to do so.

I feel for your situation as a while back I got into a pretty involved discussion when the comments I and some other forum members wrote in response to a price discussion of a Model S got deleted or moved out of the relevant topic thread. In another case I received some sort of a demerit for respectfully standing up to someone bullying everyone to such a great extent that person was banned from the forum. I was a bit taken aback as I had not seen that level of moderation on other car forums but as others are saying it's someone else's forum and they can do whatever they want with what people share here.

Those people pointing that the TMC is "private property" and that the moderators can delete your posts, alter the subject of your posts, or basically do whatever they want to do have a point. Oddly on the Tesla Corporate Web Site Forum, apart from a few extreme instances there seems to be fewer instance of micro-moderation. I've seen on the Tesla Corporate Web Site Forum sometimes people are asked to change the subject of a forum topic by other forum users but no one would go and edit the subject of someone else's forum topic.

I also think maybe some people are reacting more to your tone than what the topic is about. I think most customers would not be pleased if they received their car with mismatched parts or parts sticking out that can come loose so I understand your frustration. I see how in this case your tone could have been better but I also see how Tesla could have told you "We understand this is an issue for you and this does not seem right. Just give us two days to track down what is causing this so we can fix it for you and if we need more time we will let you know."

At the end of the day, Tesla fixed your problem completely and it seems your point is that when something is not right it should be made right without inventing excuses and I'm sure this is a lesson they learned from your incident.

In any case, the subject of your thread has been restored and your car is as it should be. So overall I think you are in great shape as you've managed to get just about everything you've wanted in this situation So, congrats!

 

[deonb]

I've asked repeatedly and gotten no answer, so this will be my last attempt (at least today): who owns this site? Has he/she/they stated an official purpose or policy guiding posts and threads and comments? I would love to know who started the site and what their thinking is or was.

Whatever the purpose was when dsacks started the site (which was probably: "Let's talk about Tesla"), he may not have foreseen every possible outcome of every policy.

The forum is organic. If you want to enact change, start a poll, and see if the majority of people want more moderation, less moderation or is happy with the moderation level.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Finally, the enthusiastic response of "YOU DON'T HAVE FREE SPEECH HERE AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GO SOMEWHERE ELSE" is very sad. Just sad. You people need to look in the mirror and ask why you're so happy about NOT having the right to free speech on this forum. But I'm not leaving unless of course I'm "banned". So if you don't like my opinions, I'm sure you can avoid reading my posts. I encourage you to do so.

I have no issues because I follow the rules. I appreciate the moderators changing thread titles to better reflect the subject. Many topics are inflammatory for no reason, and relate poorly to the actual topic presented. I maintain that it is you who may need to rethink their communication style rather than the rest of us who happily comply with the rules of this forum. Participation in this forum is a privilege, not a right. You should have more respect for those who make this site available for everyone, and asking you to follow a few simple rules is not asking too much. If it is, as I said before, perhaps you should go somewhere else where your style of thinking might be more welcomed. Give Facebook a try.

Or, if you want a dose of what an unmoderated forum looks like, take a gander at TM Forums. There is name-calling over there, and some generally horrible behavior from anonymous people. At least here people are civil to each other, but when they aren't, the moderators step in to keep things clean and professional. I appreciate that very much.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Or alternatively, look at all other forums out there which isn't as heavily moderated, and ask yourself whether you think that really makes things better or worse.

The official Tesla forums are a great example. I haven't visited them in more than a year, but last time I visited it was a complete mess. And it is because of no moderation. I should put it out there again my appreciation for the hard work of the moderators in making this a nice place to participate.

And in terms of censorship, I don't think TMC really does that. Post content are not edited (at worse they are moved to sections like snippiness), and moderators rarely use the banhammer (whereas other car enthusiast forums, the banhammer is used quite liberally).

The Tesla forums are far worse in this respect. While they don't do micro edits to titles, they have deleted entire posts or even entire threads. That has never happened here AFAIK (there have been a case of a user deleting his own posts, but not moderators).

 

[TaoJones]

While I, and others who have mentioned the same observation, would appreciate a little less overt editorializing with certain "moderation" efforts, in the end you get what you get when you venture into an online forum. They're not all as professionally run as they can be.

TMC has the benefit of volume, here-firstedness aka longevity, and *gasp* functional so-last-decade tools that include search, messaging, and easier image insertion. On the other hand, besides there being a thumb and four fingers, TM has zero editorializing, defensive or otherwise with its moderation because there is little to no visible moderation. It also has few features and who knows what sort of back-end functionality. Whereas you more or less know what you get or don't get with vBulletinware. If you care about that sort of thing.

As one who is in the middle of a service screwup but who has also experienced, in almost every other interaction with Tesla Motors, service and otherwise, truly stellar, above and beyond levels of interaction (and the car doesn't suck, either), I both feel the OP's pain and at the same time take a pragmatic view.

To wit, almost very screwup has a solution - and in the end, the result will be the result. The only variable will be the tenor and nature of the ensuing word of mouth advertising as a result.

In my case, I've been asked to speak in the future at, so far, two different Tesla clubs about the Black Hills Rally experience earlier this year (in preparation for next year's event). I have no connection to the event other than being a happy and thoroughly impressed participant. Won't say a word during the presentation about my own Tesla service experiences since they aren't germane to the topic of the talk. However, if the topic of service in general comes up afterward over beverages, and it often does, people will get the bad with the good. I'd prefer that it was all good, and while it can still be, it surely ain't now. And from where I sit as an owner, investor, and advocate/former superfan, that's a shame.

 

[dsm363]

mod note: below quote was edited out of another thread and moved here since two separate topics were quoted in the same post. It is quoted below

Wait now! Let's keep this discussion honest at least!! You did NOT just add the word "resolved" to my thread title, and you know it! You ultimately changed back to that, but your first alteration of my thread title was sarcastic, and included the words "still upset" at the end. I never objected to adding the word "Resolved". I objected to the title you first created which sounded like an ad for Tesla and belittled me, the OP. UPDATE: now that I think about it, you edit my thread title three times. The first time it made it sound like an ad for Tesla and I objected. The second time you added the sarcasm and the "still upset" and I objected. The third time you put back my original thread title with just the word Resolved in front of it. If that's not what happened I apologize, but that's my memory of it.

Here is the edit log:

Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S

Defective cowling now fixed on new 2015 Model S

[Resolved] Defective cowling now fixed on new 2015 Model S

[Resolved] Defective cowling..told unfixable...very angry..now fixed...still upset

[Resolved] Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S

Ok, this is to the moderator who I assume changed the title of this thread.

I guess your theory is that the TMC site is "pro-Tesla", and is meant to be a sort of "free advertising" site. I don't know who "owns" this website - is it stated somewhere? I'm sure it is and I missed it - I'll look again.

But changing the thread title bothers me. It goes against my right to freedom of speech, and censors what I think is legitimate criticism of Tesla's service. The original title was honest - it reflected exactly what Tesla told me when I asked them to repair what I consider a defect in my VERY EXPENSIVE, and BRAND SPANKING NEW car.

The new thread title is not honest. Yes they fixed it, but they did not explain why they originally told me it was unfixable and gave me so much grief about it. The new title does not reflect the issue - its almost an ad for Tesla, rather than an honest statement of an issue.

Just my opinion, but this website is overly Pro-Tesla, dominated and run by Tesla defenders, and in truth does NOT serve Tesla well. It would be far better for Tesla for this website to be an honest, open discussion of all things Tesla with thread titles that reflect honesty and frank statements of Tesla's issues. I don't know if you noticed this or not, but there were a few people who posted on this thread who had their own problems with Tesla. We all support the car and company. There's no need for the white-washed thread titles.

You got very upset and blamed the "Tesla defenders" after the first edit to "Defective cowling now fixed on new 2015 Model S" and that the TRUTH was being hidden. When you still made an issue after [Resolved] was added in front of that the 4th title with ....still upset was added because you were still upset.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Here is the edit log:

Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S

Defective cowling now fixed on new 2015 Model S

[Resolved] Defective cowling now fixed on new 2015 Model S

[Resolved] Defective cowling..told unfixable...very angry..now fixed...still upset

[Resolved] Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S

What if you would have just left the topic as it was, though? IMO at the very least it becomes a little questionable if thread topic's become editorialized by someone other than the thread starter, that is tantamount to putting words in their mouth.

The conversation is there for all to follow, the resolution can be presented at the end of conversation as in any thread. Why the particular need to keep editing thread titles critical of Tesla? It surely doesn't happen as much on other types of threads (other than threads with unofficial information demeed potentially harmful of Tesla, where question marks and rumour/theory labels appear by moderators - another such example).

Would it really have been bad to just leave it at "Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S" and have the conversation's end reflect the outcome. Future readers will look at the last messages in the end and the thread will fizzle out over time.

If the intent is not to defend Tesla or perceived interest of Tesla, what is the reason? Why not just leave the titles as they were when the thread was started? The title was on topic and it wasn't offensive. Even if your intent isn't the defence of Tesla, surely you must understand how it looks that way when critical content is perceived to be labelled away as quickly as possible?

There is the danger of diminishing the experience of the fellow member who felt slighted - diminished peer-support for Tesla's perceived benefit, even though I don't even think Tesla is asking any such favours - they don't police the Tesla Motors forums anywhere near like this. If someone had a bad experience, being too quick to call it over and done with can be unkind and unwise. Editorializing the experiences of others after the fact can even change their fundamental meaning.

Sometimes it might be really good for all just to let people vent. Good for all, including Tesla.

- - - Updated - - -

It is fine to disagree, of course. I provided my view on why some people are irked by such changes. It is not because clarifications are bad, it is because they seem to focus mostly on topics where hurting Tesla is a concern and they may be fairly nit-picky in nature there. There seems to be in inherent concern on TMC about such things, that is not present when discussing say a competitor's woe.

It may not have anything to do with you. Sometimes it may be public pressure from some readers.

Please. There was no public pressure to change this title or any title. If a title isn't clear or has nothing to do with the topic of the thread it gets changed. No hidden agenda. Really not too complex and no conspiracy theories needed.

There is no conspiracy, that is not my suggestion. I am sure most people all of sides of this general discussion are acting in good faith and not according to any hidden code.

By public pressure I meant moderators may be more interested to act in Tesla critical threads because there is a fairly loud contingent of people on such threads questioning the OP and calling for clarifications to the first post and the title of the thread, just like there is on this thread. A moderator reading sees those comments and may be inclined to act on them. To me it seems local culture, perhaps steeped in past bad experiences with critical press based on TMC content.

Do you not think TMC has at least a bit of tendency to moderate more threads perceived as potentially negative on Tesla - be it moderators or some members self-policing?

I mean, if the defence of Tesla is the culture then it is, who am I to argue beyond stating an opinion. Just trying to paint you a picture of why it rubs some the wrong way.

 

[stevej119]

Is it (technically) possible to move the posts from this argument, which have absolutely nothing to do with the OP, to their own thread?

What if you would have just left the topic as it was, though? IMO at the very least it becomes a little questionable if thread topic's become editorialized by someone other than the thread starter, that is tantamount to putting words in their mouth.

The conversation is there for all to follow, the resolution can be presented at the end of conversation as in any thread. Why the particular need to keep editing thread titles critical of Tesla? It surely doesn't happen as much on other types of threads (other than threads with unofficial information demeed potentially harmful of Tesla, where question marks and rumour/theory labels appear by moderators - another such example).

Would it really have been bad to just leave it at "Defective cowling Tesla says not fixable - new 2015 Model S" and have the conversation's end reflect the outcome. Future readers will look at the last messages in the end and the thread will fizzle out over time.

If the intent is not to defend Tesla or perceived interest of Tesla, what is the reason? Why not just leave the titles as they were when the thread was started? The title was on topic and it wasn't offensive. Even if your intent isn't the defence of Tesla, surely you must understand how it looks that way when critical content is perceived to be labelled away as quickly as possible?

There is the danger of diminishing the experience of the fellow member who felt slighted - diminished peer-support for Tesla's perceived benefit, even though I don't even think Tesla is asking any such favours - they don't police the Tesla Motors forums anywhere near like this. If someone had a bad experience, being too quick to call it over and done with can be unkind and unwise. Editorializing the experiences of others after the fact can even change their fundamental meaning.

Sometimes it might be really good for all just to let people vent. Good for all, including Tesla.

- - - Updated - - -



There is no conspiracy, that is not my suggestion. I am sure most people all of sides of this general discussion are acting in good faith and not according to any hidden code.

By public pressure I meant moderators may be more interested to act in Tesla critical threads because there is a fairly loud contingent of people on such threads questioning the OP and calling for clarifications to the first post and the title of the thread, just like there is on this thread. A moderator reading sees those comments and may be inclined to act on them. To me it seems local culture, perhaps steeped in past bad experiences with critical press based on TMC content.

Do you not think TMC has at least a bit of tendency to moderate more threads perceived as potentially negative on Tesla - be it moderators or some members self-policing?

I mean, if the defence of Tesla is the culture then it is, who am I to argue beyond stating an opinion. Just trying to paint you a picture of why it rubs some the wrong way.