Responding to the "Rich Man's Car" Comments

[texex91]

--> To the Mods:

Again: I have no intention what so ever to try and kick up a row here. Or highjack Leilani’s thread. Just trying to provide some food for thought in the spirit of ”Fair and Balanced”.


And now on a more serious note:

Every time I read a sentence like this one:

…stories like this springs to mind:

Additional sources:

I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave | Mother Jones

"I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave": Reporter Mac McClelland on Life Inside the Online Shipping Machine | Democracy Now! (includes transcript, and mp3 and mp4 format)


…and events like this one:

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


- - - Update: - - -

For more on this perspective, see for example A People’s History of the United States by the late political science professor, historian and World War II U.S. Army Air Force, 490th Bombardment Group bombardier Howard Zinn.

Oh Swedish...now you don't like Capitalism either?

Yep, shame on those capitalist who want to make a good living, work hard in life, make a lot of money and pay more taxes than 99% of the rest of the population. Oh, and employee a bunch of people in the mean time, so they can have a life, feed their families---you know basic stuff.

So I wonder what you think of Elon--is he not a capitalist? Why would you buy a Model S if so?

I think your S is coming soon--you must be excited.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Dear Texas,

The problem with going on here, which I’m sure will be pointed out here shortly if we carry on, is that we are going off topic.

And please note: That off-topic wasn’t started by me. It was started by Kaivball.

However:

I appreciate a little keyboard banter as much as the next guy, so if you can point me in the right direction I’ll see what I can do. But I don’t think we can continue this here in this thread. And I doubt we can even have such a discussion on TMC. I’ve been on TMC for about a year. And in my experience, since the Mods are unpaid voluntaries, they would probably like to be spared from the extra work that is likely to arise from a topic like this one on this forum.

Regardless, I’ll PM you a reply.

 

[elia7272]

budget and priorities

Not true - unless you think "middle class" = above median income.

If we take middle class as someone in the 25 to 75 percentile, we are looking at a household income of between 30k and 95k. Tell me how someone with an income of 30k and 2 kids can save enough for S.

Someone in poverty can't buy a Tesla yet, but any middle class person can, even lower end middle class if they have the right priorities and budget skills. If they want help establishing priorities and budgets I'll be happy to teach some lessons or refer you to some resources. I just added it up, since graduation, over 8 years, I have averaged 32,700 per year gross, before taxes. 10 months ago I had 20k saved for our Tesla we planned to buy end of 2013. Instead Jan 2013 we jumped on the Rav4 Ev as a much cheaper option, but would have saved for the Tesla if they had not put their power train in a cheaper option - still the best car we have ever owned.

I consider a Tesla product a lifetime investment (at least housing type durability). Many low income people pay just as much into transportation as they do housing (per US census in 2009 Average expense was $10,075 for "Shelter" and $7,658 for total transportation http://www.census.gov/compendia/sta...res_poverty_wealth/consumer_expenditures.html). With those American financial priorities, US leading the world in percentage of income spent on transportation, it's more appropriate and cheaper long term for low income people to purchase a durable product instead of the endless cost cycle of ICE transportation (to an extent such as bottom end the middle income bracket and of course excluding alternatives like walking and etc.)

Working backwards, With census stat above, average US spending $7,658 on transportation, if we take into account 15% of US is poverty bring that stat down significantly. The remaining US population above poverty spends more than that on transportation. If we assume in Tesla's favor it will have well over 50% charge in 20 years, enough to do all minimal life activities and it will have no other maintenance cost besides tires.... 20 years X $7,658 min = $153,000. that means with the existing average transportation cost, and not getting jacked on financing, you could buy a Tesla, service plan, tires, insurance and still spend less than the average american over 20 years. I dare say my car will go strong for 30 years, then destroying any price comparison.

In general, previous modals involving ICE don't work for Tesla. Most american's have a new car every 6-10 years. If I want a new Tesla every 6 years, no I can't afford that. But if we step back realize this is not a "car" in the traditional sense with different depreciation in terms of maintenance and durability then we can look at the real picture. Side note: with 15k miles in 10 months on my Tesla power train we notice no change yet in battery capacity or any performance characteristics.
-Elia Bassin

 

[ChadS]

I got an interesting comment last weekend.

We drove over the mountains to Chelan, WA for a combination EV-tourism event and EVSE network fundraiser. We toured wineries, bought wine, had a big dinner together at a local restaurant, and most of us spent the night in local hotels. So it was meant to be fun, an influx of EV money to the town, plus we wrote checks for the EVSE project. Win for everybody.

Because we had to check in, and go back and forth between wineries, we had to drive through downtown a few times. It turns out the firefighters were holding a fundraiser - they were out the street holding big rubber boots, and people were stopping and tossing in money. The first time through, my wife tossed in a $20. The second time through I just smiled and waved. As the firefighter turned away from our car, she said loud enough to be easily heard inside despite our rolled-up windows: "Really? After all the money you spent on your car?"

Obviously it's related to the car because she brought up the price. But many people make snap judgments like this even with no expensive car in sight, and I've never understood it. They don't know if I gave a lot before, or if I'll give more later, or if I'm just out of cash, or if I'm an organizer of the fundraising event, or if I have huge scheduled donations made online, or if I'm broke and just driving the car for the owner, or...the possibilities are endless. What advantage is there to assuming the worst?

It was hot and she had been standing in traffic for a while in a dark uniform; she was putting up with it to raise money for somebody else, and maybe it bugged her that she wasn't getting as much as she wanted to make the discomfort worth it. I think people are most likely to assume the worst of people they don't really have to interact with when they are stressed in some way.

 

[vfx]

... (per US census in 2009 Average expense was $10,075 for "Shelter" and $7,658 for total transportation ...

I recently read the average price of a new car purchase in the US in 2013 is $32,000.00. Six years of 10K miles driving at $4 a gallon is another $10K. So $42K is average and a ways from an MS at $70K.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I recently read the average price of a new car purchase in the US in 2013 is $32,000.00. Six years of 10K miles driving at $4 a gallon is another $10K. So $42K is average and a ways from an MS at $70K.

Mean or median? 2012 median purchase price was $30,550 for new light trucks and cars. Of course, it would be nice to see the shape of that curve and the curve for vehicle type.

 

[Kaivball]

--> To the Mods:

Again: I have no intention what so ever to try and kick up a row here. Or highjack Leilani’s thread. Just trying to provide some food for thought in the spirit of ”Fair and Balanced”.


And now on a more serious note:

Every time I read a sentence like this one:

…stories like this springs to mind:

Original source: "I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave": Reporter Mac McClelland on Life Inside the Online Shipping Machine | Democracy Now!


Additional sources:

I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave | Mother Jones

"I Was a Warehouse Wage Slave": Reporter Mac McClelland on Life Inside the Online Shipping Machine | Democracy Now! (includes transcript, and mp3 and mp4 format)


…and events like this one:

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


- - - Update: - - -

For more on this perspective, see for example A People’s History of the United States by the late political science professor, historian and World War II U.S. Army Air Force, 490th Bombardment Group bombardier Howard Zinn.

None of this disputes the power of capitalism.

It may not be the best system, but it's better than socialism, communism, tyranny or any other economic system.

Innovation and progress come from the power of capitalism.
Prosperity and growth come from the power of capitalism.

Milton Friedman sums it up better than I ever can

HarryLeaks: Milton Friedman's Pencil

 

[ZestyChicken]

I was posting some updates about a protest I attended last night and then some updates from Japan that Ric O'Barry sent me about the slaughter beginning again. ...raising the funds to drive a Cove race car at Daytona, giving away 1000 DVDs of The Cove there, spending several weeks in Taiji over three trips in two years recording the dolphin slaughter (A Look Inside the Taiji Slaughterhouse - YouTube) and lighting up the Empire State Building not enough activism on my part.

Not to go off topic too much but you're kind of awesome. I hope my daughter grows up to have your values. You're a hell of a role model.

 

[neroden]

I would be interested to hear other ways you deal with this type of criticism.

"The average American can't afford a car, period. The average American needs good public transportation -- trains, streetcars, buses. All cars are for the rich, more or less."

I know that's a somewhat radical response, but that's actually what I believe is going on right now. Tends to shut this sort of criticism down or at least drive it in a totally different direction.

 

[Kaivball]

"The average American can't afford a car, period. The average American needs good public transportation -- trains, streetcars, buses. All cars are for the rich, more or less."

I know that's a somewhat radical response, but that's actually what I believe is going on right now. Tends to shut this sort of criticism down or at least drive it in a totally different direction.

It's not a radical response, it's an erroneous response.

Unless of course you define the average American to be poverty level.

Central planners have pushed public transportation for decades as the panacea to our woes.
People vote with their feet.
Public transport is not practical or convenient in the vast majority of use cases.
Even in areas like the Silicon Valley public transportation is mostly shunned other than the homeless, illegals and few environmentalists...

Why do you believe a household making $50k cannot afford a car?

Also, please define rich. When does that start?

 

[texex91]

"The average American can't afford a car, period. The average American needs good public transportation -- trains, streetcars, buses. All cars are for the rich, more or less."

I know that's a somewhat radical response, but that's actually what I believe is going on right now. Tends to shut this sort of criticism down or at least drive it in a totally different direction.

Last time I checked most cities have public transportation. Good or bad--that can be debated--but it's there for those who wish to use it.

I look at silly things that Austin is doing like spending billions on a rail system no one uses. The build it and they will use it somehow never works here.

But hey, maybe the government will start handing out free cars like they did cell phones--that program worked great.

I don't thinks cars are for the rich. If so, everyone driving has a "Rich Man's Car".

 

[neroden]

It's not a radical response, it's an erroneous response.

It is perhaps a slight exaggeration, but not much; people just haven't caught up with the reality of the impoverishment of the US middle class over the last few decades yet.

Why do you believe a household making $50k cannot afford a car?

That is roughly the median household income, yes.

Work out the cost of housing, food, medical, etc. for a family (hint: it's been going up) then add in the cost of operating a car (hint: it's been going *way* up), and you'll find that buying a car is perhaps technically affordable, but it requires spending all the family's spare income for several years. It ends up being not-really-affordable, (unless you consider a car to be a pleasure such that it is worth foregoing other luxuries)

- - - Updated - - -

If so, everyone driving has a "Rich Man's Car".

Which is exactly why this response shuts down that entire line of criticism. :biggrin:

 

[EVNow]

They probably can't--that's okay. They might not even be able to afford a new Hyundai, but does that make Hyundai drivers bad people too?

End of the day, not everyone can afford a Tesla--no different than ANY other expensive car--pretty simple.

Exactly. Not sure why some people try to ignore the obvious.

 

[Kaivball]

.
That is roughly the median household income, yes.

Work out the cost of housing, food, medical, etc. for a family (hint: it's been going up) then add in the cost of operating a car (hint: it's been going *way* up), and you'll find that buying a car is perhaps technically affordable, but it requires spending all the family's spare income for several years. It ends up being not-really-affordable, (unless you consider a car to be a pleasure such that it is worth foregoing other luxuries)

We are clearly not assuming the same baselines.

What costs are you assuming that make a car unaffordable?

What monthly take home pay are you assuming on a $50k annual income?

I cannot create a scenario where a $250 car payment is unaffordable (+$100 gas, $75 insurance).

Are you assuming $150 cell phone and $150 cable TV and $200 cigarette spend?

At $50k a family of three takes home about $1,600 every two weeks.

Rent $800?
Food$ 800
Car all in $450?

That's $2,500.

Another $200 for electric and water.

$2700.

Still leaves $900.

 

[neroden]

We are clearly not assuming the same baselines.

What costs are you assuming that make a car unaffordable?

What monthly take home pay are you assuming on a $50k annual income?

I cannot create a scenario where a $250 car payment is unaffordable (+$100 gas, $75 insurance).

Are you assuming $150 cell phone and $150 cable TV and $200 cigarette spend?

At $50k a family of three takes home about $1,600 every two weeks.

Rent $800?
Food$ 800
Car all in $450?

That's $2,500.

Another $200 for electric and water.

$2700.

Still leaves $900.

Double the electric bill, multiply the rent by 1.5, and add the $150 cellphone is required for employment. I realize cost-of-living varies regionally, so there are probably *places* where the median family can comfortably afford a car, but there are lots of places where they can't. Oh, also -- you left out taxes! (Edit: OK, I think you assumed California rates.)

Quite likely add student loans.

 

[texex91]

Double the electric bill, multiply the rent by 1.5, and add the $150 cellphone is required for employment. I realize cost-of-living varies regionally, so there are probably *places* where the median family can comfortably afford a car, but there are lots of places where they can't. Oh, also -- you left out taxes! (Edit: OK, I think you assumed California rates.)

Quite likely add student loans.

Can get a free Obama phone, so there goes $150, and taxes--most people don't pay taxes just FYI (something like 46%).

Net net, some can afford, some can't. So goes life.

 

[arondaniel]

The revolution will not be cheap. At least not right away... Unless you got in TSLA at $26.

 

[SebastianR]

Just to add a little nuance to this discussion: In Denmark (and similarly in Norway for that matter) an Audi A4 sedan with a 2.0 TFSI engine (no options) is about as expensive as a Model S 60 kWh (no options).

I know Audi is not really a discount car maker but A4s are hardly "rich man's cars" either.

So if a Tesla is "expensive" will depend massively on your own situation and of course vary with the place you live in...

 

[Ven Rala]

Most people in the world can't even dream about owning a car (any kind of car), so for someone to say a Tesla is 'rich man's car' I would say so is a Honda Civic (as it would be in many developing countries). People should be happy they live in a country where have a luxury such as a car is affordable for most people.

When I was a child, my family lived in India and our family transportation was a Vespa type scooter. My dad, mom, sister and I all managed to fit on the scooter and at the time that was considered the average middle class family transportation. I have no apologies for working hard, saving money, and getting a doctorate level education that allows me to afford a Tesla.

I consider myself a political liberal and am stonrgly in favor of helping those who may not have had the social or economic advantages of others, but there is no substitute for hard work and self-responsibility.

 

[TylerCA]

leilani, it's going to be very difficult to appease the masses. Afterall, social media allows just about anyone with a phone, tablet, or pc to post. You will get criticism for something especially for those who do not know you. I personally have given up many many years ago to prove to people who I am. Will they judge me when I am driving in my Ferrari or Lambo? Sure, I know I will. Instead, what's more important is how you treat people so they will see you for who you really are. Judging from your social accolades alone, you are a wonderful and high spirited woman. Keep that up and don't let the negativity get to you.