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Retuning a Long Range Model X

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If you have access to any 120v outlet where you park normally, that will solve your problem. It won't charge your car up for chit, but it will neutralize your night losses.

Some people say just shut off all the features that use power. That is an admission the car is engineered badly. You don't have cripple most cars to park them overnight, and Tesla should work on this problem.

Instead we have people spazing about font sizes and video games when we still have serious propulsion issues.
 
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This doesn't sound like "degradation" at all. More like energy use while not plugged in.
How much energy is used when not plugged in is dependent on your settings in the car as well as use of apps like TeslaFi or the phone app.
Main thing is to realize that a Tesla isn't a gas car that can be charged once a week - it needs to be plugged in.
 
The car is functioning as designed...OP is simply doing it wrong to get best range.

I imagine sales person did not know you would be parking outside, taking short trips and frequently pre conditioning your battery.

Pre conditioning your battery is mostly designed to allow it to take a quicker charge when Supercharging.

OP is going up the learning curve with his first EV. Once he gets a better understanding of how his Tesla works, he will become more aware of how to get the most out of it.
 
The vehicle with the longest range was specifically purchased because home charging doesn’t work for us. We live in house downtown in the largest city in Canada. The appeal of the Tesla was the range such that we didn’t need to worry about at home charging solutions. A bi-weekly trip to a supercharger would be more than plenty even in the winter. It appears this isn’t a battery issue, but rather a misrepresentation of what we were purchasing when we discussed our needs with the salesperson. We said we drive 5-10 kms a day each way to work. With a range of almost 600kms we were told this vehicle would have no problem doing that. I think any reasonable person would agree there is a problem here. Shockingly, the vehicle is now expensive to operate than a gasoline vehicle.

This happens all the time in the model 3 forums. Someone looks at the car, thinks "the model 3 long range has a range of 310 / 350 miles, I only drive 20 miles a day, I dont have supercharging at home but this is no issue as I can just supercharge every 10 days or so and it will be fine.

It absolutely positively 1000000% does not work that way, ever. In addition, the model X is heavier than a model 3, and has a much higher wh/mi than a model 3. Also, the OP is pre conditioning the battery "to improve range" when the car is not plugged in, which just uses electricity to heat the battery without moving the car. Preconditioning does improve range, but cost energy.

The advice to do that is not for someone who is not charging from the wall.

Additionally, people look at the range when buying and forget that they will not be using all of it. OP (with no home charging) is only charging to 80% for some reason (probably to "save the battery"), when at a minimum they should be charging to 90% since they have no home charging. A brand new model X is rated for 371 miles. Thats 100% to 0 %. No one is doing that (often) anyway, What the REAL range is is 80% (what this OP is charging to) to about 20-30% (what a person would re charge at).

Thats 296 miles to 111 miles, or 185 miles. 185 ish miles is the effective range of charging to 80% and discharging to 30%, or 297 km. The car will not roll off miles "1:1" (just like an ICE). Unlike an ICE, this effect is magnified in the cold. 185 miles range (charging from 80% to 30%) driven at one time will likely be 140-150 miles.

Driven over several days, will likely be more like 100 miles, and that doesnt count any pre conditioning, pre heating, sentry mode etc. Sentry mode on a model 3 uses 1-2 miles an hour. No idea what it uses on a model X but I suspect its similar.

The OP can make this a "bit" better but it will never be "oh we can just charge at the supercharger every 2 weeks or so", not now, and not in the summer either. Ways to make it "better"

1. Stop charging to "80%". Charge to 90% since you dont have home charging, and are concerned about attempting to stretch the time between charging.

2. Stop pre conditioning the car if its not plugged in, you are simply wasting range that way It only helps range if its pre conditioning from a plugged in situation, because otherwise you are burning more energy than you would be saving by pre conditoning.

3. Dont use sentry mode, unless you completely necessary (uses 1-2 miles an hour of range)

4. Dont check on the car using the app when its sleeping

5. dont use any third party apps at all (teslafi, stats, teslamate, any watch app etc etc), or if you do, triple check that they are configured properly to let the car sleep. Basically, any app that can interact with the car also can wake the car, and when the car is not sleeping it uses miles at a higher rate (why sentry mode uses 1-2 miles an hour, the car doesnt sleep)

5. if you have FSD turn off standby summon. This uses additional range as well

These will help, but the car will never be one you can drive 10 miles a day for 2 weeks and supercharge, with no charging in between. If thats the expectation, then you should likely sell the car to cut your losses and move back to an ICE vehicle.
 
I’m not saying it’s normal. The company who sold me the car is saying it is. I said if it normal then the company represented the vehicle when they sold it. Their service tech came to the house and said it loses range in the winter time and to plug it in. I was fully aware of the fact it can be lower than advertised. No one, including me, is suggesting I should get exactly the advertised range of 597kms in Winter time with intermittent driving. The question in this thread is this: is the range degradation within reasonable expectations.

There is no range degredation, its energy use when not plugged in, and your car is likely functioning normally... just like the 100s of times we have had to answer this exact question in the model 3 forum.
 
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The overwhelming consensus appears to be that this is normal. Which is what I suspected. That doesn’t mean they are not misrepresenting what the vehicle can do. A number of representations were made by a representative of the company which don’t seem to be true. This appears to be an issue of the law, not the science about the battery.

I appreciate everyone’s insight and various experiences.
 
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I don’t think anything is wrong with his car. Also depending on how busy the supercharger he is at, it might be limited to 80%. But yeah, definitely 90% if allowed, especially in winter. Maybe even 92% and target it, so when he parks at home (or work) he parks it for the day (or night) at 90%.

There is no such thing as an 80% limit at a Supercharger. At some higher-use locations, the car will *default* to 80%, but you can always override it.

The overwhelming consensus appears to be that this is normal. Which is what I suspected. That doesn’t mean they are not misrepresenting what the vehicle can do. A number of representations were made by a representative of the company which don’t seem to be true. This appears to be an issue of the law, not the science about the battery.

I appreciate everyone’s insight and various experiences.

It's definitely the case that you should expect to get nowhere near rated range in your circumstances, but folks saying that what you're seeing is normal are not accurate, in my experience (and to put that out there, that's about 120,000 combined miles across 3 Teslas I own plus multiple others owned by family members in 3 different climates, data tracked by TeslaFi).

Your mention of 78 miles is not normal from 80% on a 371-mile rated Tesla, ever, in my experience (which includes weeks below 0F, massive snow/ice storms, multiple weeks of only <5 min trips). That would be a 74% hit due to the cold and your usage pattern. (371 * .8 = 297 rated range. 78 / 297 = .26.)

You will absolutely see a hit of 20-30% in the cold, and more when taking only short trips without the benefit of wall-outlet preconditioning. I'd expect 40-50%, and that's about the most I see in winter when driving short trips. Granted, I'm in Colorado where it's rarely below 15F. 74% is probably because you're also consuming preconditioning energy while not plugged in, waking the car up via the phone app (don't open the app when not using the car, as this will wake it each time), doing software updates, etc.

Were I in your shoes, I'd recommend charging to 90 rather than 80%, avoiding use of the phone app except when driving, never preconditioning unless you need to for your own comfort (and then doing so for 5 min or less), and leaving the car set to Range Mode.

The net effect of that is that you should see no worse than 265 km per charge (50% of rated from 90%). That's what, double what you're seeing?
 
Update: Today at 8 am it's 31%, no sentry.

Now that it’s settled, don’t touch it for 24 hours and I bet it’s less than 1%. When component temps are changing, like parking a warm car in the cold you’ll see larger changes. Estimates can be off, values are off because car is cold. If you restored it to the same condition it was in when you parked it, it probably would read less change.

I’ve seen as low as 1 mile a day, ONLY when it sat for like 5 days. But the first day might be like 6 miles. It takes a while to get into that first deep sleep. It might be doing uploads as well.

Also when charging similar things happen. Charge to 80% and as soon as charging stops things change as things cool down.

Just like if you drive once a day in cold weather on one charge vs use it all at once is very different.

If you drive or charge once a day and judge losses over that first 8 hours after parking (or charging or an update) and extrapolate up to a day vs measure it, AFTER IT SETTLES is very different. There are way to many variables when you first park, after charge or update.
 
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There is no such thing as an 80% limit at a Supercharger. At some higher-use locations, the car will *default* to 80%, but you can always override it.



It's definitely the case that you should expect to get nowhere near rated range in your circumstances, but folks saying that what you're seeing is normal are not accurate, in my experience (and to put that out there, that's about 120,000 combined miles across 3 Teslas I own plus multiple others owned by family members in 3 different climates, data tracked by TeslaFi).

Your mention of 78 miles is not normal from 80% on a 371-mile rated Tesla, ever, in my experience (which includes weeks below 0F, massive snow/ice storms, multiple weeks of only <5 min trips). That would be a 74% hit due to the cold and your usage pattern. (371 * .8 = 297 rated range. 78 / 297 = .26.)

You will absolutely see a hit of 20-30% in the cold, and more when taking only short trips without the benefit of wall-outlet preconditioning. I'd expect 40-50%, and that's about the most I see in winter when driving short trips. Granted, I'm in Colorado where it's rarely below 15F. 74% is probably because you're also consuming preconditioning energy while not plugged in, waking the car up via the phone app (don't open the app when not using the car, as this will wake it each time), doing software updates, etc.

Were I in your shoes, I'd recommend charging to 90 rather than 80%, avoiding use of the phone app except when driving, never preconditioning unless you need to for your own comfort (and then doing so for 5 min or less), and leaving the car set to Range Mode.

The net effect of that is that you should see no worse than 265 km per charge (50% of rated from 90%). That's what, double what you're seeing?

His numbers are VERY believable (normal) if he’s doing what we think.

371 minus 20% off the top and off the bottom to start.

Now precondition for who knows how long (wasn’t stated). Now drive 8 miles (in city, may not have full regen). Let the car cool for 8 hours, precondition AGAIN drive 8 miles. Now do that 5-10 times a week. And you will chew up your battery real fast.

We agree on resolutions. 90% and stop preconditioning.
 
If you don’t have charging at home charge to 90%. I think 80% is good for nightly charge. But if your trying to maximize a charge, charge higher.
I’d think of this as “park at 90%”. Before parking, supercharge as high as 100% if you have the patience but then drive away immediately. If your Supercharger is close to your overnight parking then determine the percent battery needed to get home so the battery sits at about 90%.

Can you follow Bjorn’s Always Be Charging rule? Grab a charge while grocery shopping for example (doesn’t have to be Supercharger).
 
That is right. I’m running the car between charges on “single charge” as there is no practical charging solution at home. I will test without preconditioning. Regen braking randomly stopped working and again the comment from Tesla tech was that was normal when it’s cold.
 
I’d think of this as “park at 90%”. Before parking, supercharge as high as 100% if you have the patience but then drive away immediately. If your Supercharger is close to your overnight parking then determine the percent battery needed to get home so the battery sits at about 90%.

Can you follow Bjorn’s Always Be Charging rule? Grab a charge while grocery shopping for example (doesn’t have to be Supercharger).

Thank you but the issue is I shouldn’t have to always be charging. The car was sold on the basis of range on a “single charge”. That’s really my issue. If they told me it’s really only 125 km range when city driving when it’s cold but could go as high as 597 in the summer on the highway that would be a different story
 
That is right. I’m running the car between charges on “single charge” as there is no practical charging solution at home. I will test without preconditioning. Regen braking randomly stopped working and again the comment from Tesla tech was that was normal when it’s cold.

Dont "test" without pre conditioning. Stop pre conditioning, it is not helping you in your situation in the slightest. Also, regen braking, which is putting charge into the battery) does not work the same when the battery is cold. Regen braking is not going to help you much with your situation though.

Stop pre conditoning, stop using sentry mode, and ensure you are not looking at the tesla app to "check on the car", or using any monitoring from any third party apps. Charge to 90% instead of 80%, and run down to at least 20% if the supercharger is fairly close.

Those recommendations will help you.... but as I said, the car will not be one you can drive for 15 miles a day for two weeks, in between supercharges.
 
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Thank you but the issue is I shouldn’t have to always be charging. The car was sold on the basis of range on a “single charge”. That’s really my issue. If they told me it’s really only 125 km range when city driving when it’s cold but could go as high as 597 in the summer on the highway that would be a different story

The car is sold with an EPA range rating. Your operating cycle does not match that of the EPA test cycle, which is very specific. Deviating from the EPA test cycle will result in more or less range - less if you’re driving faster, there is precipitation or it’s cold, more if you’re driving slower or it’s warm. Constant short trips in the winter will result in the worst-case efficiency due to the need to heat the cabin up from cold for each trip.

Minimizing preconditioning and running in range mode should improve your situation significantly. You’ll notice reduced regen, but that’s to be expected when the battery is cold.
 
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Thank you but the issue is I shouldn’t have to always be charging. The car was sold on the basis of range on a “single charge”. That’s really my issue. If they told me it’s really only 125 km range when city driving when it’s cold but could go as high as 597 in the summer on the highway that would be a different story

I agree that there is not enough information given by Tesla to new buyers, but I think what is happening is that as EVs become more mainstream, people are no longer approaching EVs with the proper caution that they used to. Sales people (and tech support reps) are always going to be short on knowledge because of their pay levels.

The issue that you are "probably" experiencing is that batteries loose up to 50% of their capacity in the freezing cold, and heating them, along with the cabin, uses a lot of power. You may well have 300 km (240@80%) of city driving in one shot, but with the "extreme weather" of Canada, combined with the multiple stop/start maybe that gets you to that range. I think also, you may have a little bit (10-20%) of an exaggeration on the 125 mile range @80% you calculated. You wouldn't have the guts to show up at the supercharger with < 5%, since you risk being stranded on the way there, and you need to do it at your convenience, so practically, people who supercharge end up doing it up to 20% and also randomly topping off when they have time.

I'm not saying you don't have a problem with the car, but even at once a week supercharging, personally, I would not own the car.

Your options are pretty simple though:
1. Sell the car (recommend)
2. Install Home or Work charging (you said not possible)
3. Supercharge twice a week in the winter

I don't think you have a good legal case for a lemon or misrepresentation. You do have yourself an "ethical" case and a "bad review/bad experience" with Tesla. Better take a 5-10k loss by selling than to spend 50-100k more on lawyers with at best the chance to get back your money.
 
this is interesting, and shows how an ev differs from filling a gas tank 1-2x a week...
4v14cw.jpg
 
Thank you but the issue is I shouldn’t have to always be charging. The car was sold on the basis of range on a “single charge”. That’s really my issue. If they told me it’s really only 125 km range when city driving when it’s cold but could go as high as 597 in the summer on the highway that would be a different story

You were misled. In cold climates especially, these cars need to be plugged in overnight at home, otherwise it is extremely inconvenient to own. I bet if you talked to any Tesla owners locally they would say the same thing and advise you against buying the car.

Your next step should be trying to get some sort of charging solution in your parking garage.
 
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