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Return to Singapore

Discussion in 'Singapore' started by twinklejet, Oct 17, 2013.

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  1. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    #61 markwj, Mar 17, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
    The latter. The test is very specific about how it is to be applied. The only way to get one result 2.5x times another is to stuff it up.

    Think of it like this: There is a test for measuring the temperature of boiling water. You heat the water and observe until it boils then record the temperature. Now, certainly there is going to be some variation in test results. Things like altitude, for instance. But, if you got a result of 245Celcius for the boiling point of water, would you just assume that it was correct and move on?

    Or blame the water being 'not new'.
     
  2. miimura

    miimura Well-Known Member

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    I am with markwj on this. As an engineer it is incomprehensible to me how that test result made it all the way through the bureaucratic procedure and the owner paid the tax. If I was the owner, I would rather pay to have the car retested than pay that tax. The question is, why isn't the car being retested with appropriate supervision for adherence to the stipulated procedure?
     
  3. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    According to Tesla's statement, that is exactly what they are trying to arrange. The owner is also asking for oversight of the re-test.
     
  4. Knobby

    Knobby Member

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    QED? LOL.. you're really making a big leap here from Tesla's statement to "Tesla used R101" The fact is, Tesla does not state that anywhere. UNECE R101 counts losses not related to driving over the course of the test. 181 Wh/km is just the energy usage of the car from its battery, like the battery got charged by magic.

    As for 444 I do think that is an error of some kind.. Maybe if they caught the Tesla balancing. UNECE R101 requires topping off the battery (twice) and that would trigger balancing.
    .
     
  5. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    Both Tesla and the Singapore government have stated that figure in their public releases. They are both saying that the figure for Singapore would be 181Wh/km. Singapore uses UNECE R101, and both are aware of that.
     
  6. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    This is dragging on, and going nowhere.

    The issue is that Tesla doesn't publicly release their full test results for fuel economy under either European or US test cycles. They do release range specifications, but you can't convert that to consumption without getting crazy answers.

    For example the Canadian P85 rated at 426km range with 23.6kWh/100km results in 236Wh/km for an 85Kw battery. OK, but 23.6kWh/100km for 426km range is 100.5kWh out of an 85kWh battery. Obviously the range is one thing and the fuel economy another; you can't calculate one from the other because of charging, vampire, and other losses.

    The test specification of 'manufacturer's standard charging' is also hugely problematic - charging at 10A vs 16A vs 32A vs 80A are all standard, but would yield very very different efficiency differences and cause a wide variation in test results. Bring in battery balancing cycles, as previously mentioned, and the test is further compromised.

    And that is the crux of the problem.

    You can quite easily test a petrol car according to UNECE R101 and individually testing cars would probably give you a reasonable result for that one car. The result you get will approximate real world conditions on the same drive cycle.

    But testing electric cars is vastly different. There are so many variables involved that the test results would vary wildly. Conducting these tests, with manufacturer involvement to ensure the test is conducted fairly, correctly, and optimally, is fine. But, conducting them without manufacturer involvement by people inexperienced with conducting them in the first place, leads to results that have no bearing on real life.

    In my view, the mistake that the Singapore government made was in conducting this test on an individual electric car in the first place. There was no way it could produce a result anywhere close to being fair and comparable to the tests done on ICE vehicles.
     
  7. IngTH

    IngTH Member

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    #67 IngTH, Mar 19, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
    Noone said that a ECE R101 test is fair for a model S.
    This test is designed to simulate the behavour of a daily commuter. It was introduced at a time when battery electric cars were small, lightweight and had a range of about 80km.

    The high average SOC, eventual balancing of a Model S big battery pack along with the 'moderate' efficiency of stepup charger are effects you can't blame the test designers for.

    After all, everyone who's ever been in singapore will agree that a model S maybe isn't the perfect way of sustainable transportation over there?
     
  8. jnguyen

    jnguyen New Member

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    Hi All, Wow. I did not realized there was a thread here on this. I would have come in sooner and commented. Anyhow, VICOM messed up the test. I saw their equipment and their useless staff (at least when it came to EVs).

    I got my electricity bill and for the last two months I have incurred an additional 800kWh of electricity above my normal average (before I had the Tesla), and I have traveled 3,368km during that time. The number works out to 237wH/km, not 444wH/km. Otherwise my electricity bill would be much higher!

    That's the proof. Waiting for a re-test. But Hey! Take my money and give me a cause.
     
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  9. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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    It's not easy to be a pioneer. Thanks for being so good about it.

    By the way, Any of your car's specs that may affect Energy Consumption please:

    Battery size:
    Rear Wheel Drive or Dual Motor:
    NonPerformance, Performance, Ludicrous:
    Wheel Size:
    Coil or Air Suspension:
    ...
     
  10. East41st

    East41st New Member

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  11. weak_pig

    weak_pig Member

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    Hi Joe, nice to meet you. That means your avg monthly charges for Tesla charging is around S$81 per month. It's cheaper than petrol, most definitely.

    I'm also curious, why didn't you choose to buy Model S new as compared to used?
     
  12. Killroy

    Killroy Member

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    Any resolution on this?

    I was listening to the Oil And Gas This Week podcast and they mentioned that Tesla got fined by Singapore, but did not mention that it was contested by Tesla and they need to check there numbers.

    To revisit the math, if the energy used by the charger is really 444 Whr/km then if we multiply by the range of 508 km, then we get 223 kWhr per full charge.

    How does it take 223 kWhr to charge a 85 kWhr battery? Charge efficiency even with balancing should be ~89%. Something is wrong with the test or numbers. I have done the measurement when charging my Zero Motorcycle.
     
  13. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    Not yet. The plan was for Tesla to send a car to Singapore and then conduct a joint test. They would then re-test Joe's car.

    However, given the lack of news, I am guessing LTA/VICOM are just wishing this whole mess would just go away. I don't see how they can get out of it without admitting that the initial test (and fine) was badly performed.
     
  14. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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    It's possible that ignoring the issue and make sure there's no resolution in this case is the best way to handle it.

    Why would you want to identify something just for the sake of 1 individual when the reputation of a nation and company is at stake?

    If you leave it unresolved, it's a win-win scenario for both Singapore and Tesla:

    For Singapore: There's no risk for possible errors exposed.

    For Tesla: NEW Tesla imports are welcome by Singapore with maximum government rebates.

    The only problem is (in addition to 1 victim above) when those new cars become old, how can you sell used Tesla without being penalized with the old test and fine?

    But that's a few years from now. By that time, may be the old test is quietly revised to accommodate a flood gate of used Tesla without issuing the gross polluter penalty.
     
  15. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    It all relies on Joe (the owner in question) playing nice. Imagine Tesla test shows 181wh/km (as per Europe, same test). Now, Joe has to keep quite and not complain about his 444wh/km result. Or, another guy brings in a second hand Model S, and gets tested at 181wh/km. Joe has to keep quiet. Or fuel economy figure used for yearly vehicle license. Joe has to keep quiet every year and pay the extra...

    VICOM is an external company, not the Singapore government. I really think the easiest is to blame them and throw them to the wolves. LTA can say that when this mistake was brought to their attention, they worked with Tesla to re-test. VICOM admit the fault, re-test Joe's car, and Joe gets a refund. Everybody happy except VICOM - but it was their problem in the first place.
     
  16. Merlion

    Merlion New Member

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    Is there any further update on the retest?
     
  17. Brianshh

    Brianshh New Member

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    newly registered....just saw Joe's FB closed group and request to join....hopefully SG gov's test on EV is going well....I wanna get my hands on a Model S or the Model 3.
     
  18. Tam

    Tam Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for re-opening a can of worms.

    You should not have to worry about any kind of tests if you import a new Tesla. You'll be handsomely rewarded with government incentives with absolutely no emissions test.

    Joe's problem was: a used Tesla went through an emissions test and failed and was penalized as gross polluter.
     
  19. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    Seems to be that the solution chosen by the Singapore government is to stall and do nothing. That way nobody loses face or is found at fault.
     
  20. Brianshh

    Brianshh New Member

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    There are Some progress by the SG gov on the EV test as well as implementation for the tiny island. This is a good sign and I hope they will continue their effort in this project. Save Gaia....
     

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