Reuters: "Tesla readies revamped Model 3 with project 'Highland' -sources" [projected 3rd quarter 2023]

[Phido]

Funny how a car has been out since January and we know nothing about the capacity of the pack or cost? I will wait for the actual data.

I don't under stand what you are talking about. This can be easily googled and provided by American automotive websites.

Zeekr 009 MPV With 500+ Miles Of Range Enters Production In China

The Rolls-Royce-like Zeekr 009 all-electric people carrier has entered production with a massive 140-kWh battery pack that offers up to 510 miles of range on a single charge.

insideevs.com

Two battery options are available for the 205-inch (5.2-meter) long EV, starting with a 116 kWh pack that offers a maximum driving range of 436 miles (702 km), while the bigger variant offers 140 kWh and a total range of 510 miles (822 km) on China’s CLTC test cycle.

It’s also worth noting that the Zeekr 009 with the bigger battery pack is the first production vehicle to feature CATL’s series-produced Qilin lithium-nickel-manganese-cobalt cells, the company’s third-generation of cell-to-pack (CTP) technology. The revised Zeekr 001 will also feature the same 140-kWh battery, but because we’re talking about a smaller and lighter vehicle, the range is rated at an impressive 641 miles (1,031 km).

There is a review from Wheelsboy and Elliot from Fully Charged.

I am not buying. Tesla is all about making cars cheaper. If there was a cheaper battery from CATL with more range, Tesla would be on it.

Because the batteries are not made in the USA? Because CATL hasn't finished building their new factory in China? Because Tesla is focused on the Cybertruck and other US focused distractions? New red paint?

There are regular UAV flyovers of the CATL factory on youtube.

It was rumored Tesla was to use the M3P battery after the catl annoucnement last year .

Next-Generation Automotive M3P Batteries By CATL » LiFePo4 Australia

CATL, the world's largest Lithium Battery Manufacturer, has recently announced a new battery type, with a modified version of the LMFP chemistry, LMFP stands

lifepo4.com.au

And waves of speculation since news outlets started putting together peices about 8 days ago.

Tesla supplier CATL to start mass production of M3P batteries this year

Tesla supplier CATL is set to start the production of its M3P batteries, which offer 15% greater energy density than traditional LFP cells.

www.teslarati.com

If Tesla doesn't jump on it, how do they expect to compete in China, a market they are struggling in, if they don't adopt this new technology.

 

[Niroc]

I don't under stand what you are talking about. This can be easily googled and provided by American automotive websites.

Zeekr 009 MPV With 500+ Miles Of Range Enters Production In China

The Rolls-Royce-like Zeekr 009 all-electric people carrier has entered production with a massive 140-kWh battery pack that offers up to 510 miles of range on a single charge.

insideevs.com

There is a review from Wheelsboy and Elliot from Fully Charged.

Because the batteries are not made in the USA? Because CATL hasn't finished building their new factory in China? Because Tesla is focused on the Cybertruck and other US focused distractions? New red paint?

There are regular UAV flyovers of the CATL factory on youtube.

It was rumored Tesla was to use the M3P battery after the catl annoucnement last year .

Next-Generation Automotive M3P Batteries By CATL » LiFePo4 Australia

CATL, the world's largest Lithium Battery Manufacturer, has recently announced a new battery type, with a modified version of the LMFP chemistry, LMFP stands

lifepo4.com.au

And waves of speculation since news outlets started putting together peices about 8 days ago.

Tesla supplier CATL to start mass production of M3P batteries this year

Tesla supplier CATL is set to start the production of its M3P batteries, which offer 15% greater energy density than traditional LFP cells.

www.teslarati.com

If Tesla doesn't jump on it, how do they expect to compete in China, a market they are struggling in, if they don't adopt this new technology.

There is nothing in that article stating the estimates is based upon the EPA. So, please provide that information.

And no, outrageous claims does not mean it is true. Lets wait until the facts, as in actual data points, are out on CATL's new pack rather than the companies' hearsay. That is my main point. Again, I have the CATL's LFP battery and it is performing very well.

 

[Phido]

There is nothing in that article stating the estimates is based upon the EPA. So, please provide that information.

The EPA is an American organisation. They don't deal with things beyond America, or cars that aren't sold in the United States. It was started in 1970 under Nixon, an American president, for America and Americans.

United States Environmental Protection Agency - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why would a car sold in China for the Chinese market, get it EPA tested? A rating by the way that is not terribly accurate either, or used globally.

You know there are countries beyond the United States? That the United States government has absolutely no say in the rating or production or qualifying of those items? I know these forums are pretty American centric, but there are plenty of people that live and operate outside of the United States, one might say the whole world exists pretty much outside of the United States, which is mostly a territory on the continent of North America, wedged in between the countries of Canada and Mexico. Canada has more territory than the United States, so the US isn't even the largest country in North America.

China is a country mostly with Territory on the Eurasian continent. It is approximately in area, the same size of the United States, but has over four times the population. Its a real thing, its been in all the papers. It has apparently existed for some time.

So just to sum up my points.

• Elon has said Lithium Phosphate batteries are the future. Cobalt has ethical issues, cost issues, supply issues. There are also fire risks shipping and operating this type of chemistry going forward.
• CATL has an existing agreement with Tesla globally and supplies most of their batteries
• CATL has a new battery technology that is in low rate production that will improve energy density 15% and a new package that improves it again 15%. This has been officially announced in press releases from CATL, one of the largest battery manufacturers in the world and listed on stock exchanges.
• This battery is in a car that is on sale in China today, and has been rated by the Chinese authorities.
• CATL is building a new large factory near Tesla Shanghai, expected to be operational by around sept.
• CATL has stated it will be supplying Tesla in the future and is planning to build a factory in North America. Operational in about 2 years.
• CATL is just a battery company (unlike BYD) and needs to supply 3rd party manufacturers.
• China is a tough market for Tesla and other car makers have products on the market that have superior range, safety, life and price to Tesla. Tesla has been cutting prices in line with other manufacturers, Tesla isn't the market leader in China (but they are in the top 3).

You apparently don't believe it because The Zeekr 009 not EPA rated. A car not sold in the US, by a brand not in the US. There are reasons to be sceptical, I'm not sure the EPA rating a car not for sale in the US is one of them.

Your entitled that that view, I just strongly disagree with it. I don't know when this battery is coming to North America, but no doubt it is coming, possibly when CATL builds their factory in 2 years time.

 

[3sr+buyer]

There is nothing in that article stating the estimates is based upon the EPA. So, please provide that information.

Because that is a vehicle from a company in China sold in the China market, those range numbers are likely CLTC numbers.

How To Convert Conflicting EV Range Test Cycles: EPA, WLTP, CLTC claims that the CLTC ratings are about 35% more optimistic than EPA ratings. So 510 miles of CLTC range is probably equivalent to something like 378 miles of EPA range (or 821 and 608 km respectively, since most non-US countries use metric).

The page about the Zeeker 009 says that it uses a 140 kWh NMC battery (so not an LFP or L(something)P battery). That would mean a CLTC rated driving economy of 5.86 km/kWh or 3.64 miles/kWh, before taking into account charging losses.

 

[texas_star_TM3]

Because that is a vehicle from a company in China sold in the China market, those range numbers are likely CLTC numbers.

How To Convert Conflicting EV Range Test Cycles: EPA, WLTP, CLTC claims that the CLTC ratings are about 35% more optimistic than EPA ratings. So 510 miles of CLTC range is probably equivalent to something like 378 miles of EPA range (or 821 and 608 km respectively, since most non-US countries use metric).

The page about the Zeeker 009 says that it uses a 140 kWh NMC battery (so not an LFP or L(something)P battery). That would mean a CLTC rated driving economy of 5.86 km/kWh or 3.64 miles/kWh, before taking into account charging losses.

so short of 400 miles of range EPA with a 140 kwh (!) battery... lol. thanks for putting that into context.

and no - as batteries get better and denser... Tesla will likely also reduce kwh size to cut costs. they ain't dropping a 400+ miles rated battery into a Model 3 ...

 

[Kevy Baby]

The EPA is an American organisation. They don't deal with things beyond America, or cars that aren't sold in the United States. It was started in 1970 under Nixon, an American president, for America and Americans.

America, F*** Yeah!

(Solely intended as humor)

 

[Phido]

and no - as batteries get better and denser... Tesla will likely also reduce kwh size to cut costs. they ain't dropping a 400+ miles rated battery into a Model 3 ...

I agree I don't think Tesla will significantly change Max range, maybe by 5 or 10 miles. It might even be shorter by the same margin.

The rwd will get a physically smaller battery pack with the same capacity. So will be lighter and more importantly cheaper.

The lr and performance will likely get battery pack with approximately the same usable capacity. At least in China. Some thing like 75kw.

But lithium phosphate batteries can be charged 100%.

The move is about phosphate batteries which are safer, cheaper and longer lived. It is not going to be about longer range, that's catl marketing statement and is more about replacing existing phosphate batteries and gaining range by energy densities.

 

[804son]

Regardless of battery price decreases, Tesla vehicle prices will only reduce if there is market pressure to do so. Tesla has proven they're not going to give up profit margin unless there is a market reason to do so.

 

[enemji]

On a daily commute life, the use is about 120 miles max.

 

[chinney]

Cost cutting projects get a fantastic project name

Cost-cutting would be good if it also leads to a significant reduction in price. A more affordable Model 3 would do a lot for EV adoption.

 

[Phido]

Regardless of battery price decreases, Tesla vehicle prices will only reduce if there is market pressure to do so. Tesla has proven they're not going to give up profit margin unless there is a market reason to do so.

The only real pressure is from China, BYD has some very competitive products for that market. BYD supplies Tesla in Europe, and can supply legacy auto in Europe as well.

Tesla is still very much a premium brand and doesn't need to match prices of Chinese automakers. They are way behind on self driving, interface etc. But in battery tech and propulsion they are right there if not a little ahead and possibly more agile.

Cost-cutting would be good if it also leads to a significant reduction in price. A more affordable Model 3 would do a lot for EV adoption.

The next model 3 is going to be better positioned to fight on price.

It will have new features, and improved technology, but things like vision replacing USS will continue. Mega castings to improve speed, reduce costs, etc. They will simplify and optimize. Phosphate batteries, more vision focused technologies, it may not even include radar, that may just be for the model X and S and maybe premium models in the 3 and the Y.

Car prices in China are crashing. Petrol and diesel cars can't be given away with the new emissions laws making them basically illegal to sell. EV's are falling in price too.

 

[chinney]

Good points. A more affordable Model 3 would also better align with Tesla's original vision for that model. I know that there is the prospect of another model eventually fulfilling the role of the 'everyman' Tesla, but in the interim a more affordable Model 3 would be good, ideally with the potential of options that would allow it still to have higher-end features for those who want to and can pay for them.

 

[Phido]

Good points. A more affordable Model 3 would also better align with Tesla's original vision for that model. I know that there is the prospect of another model eventually fulfilling the role of the 'everyman' Tesla, but in the interim a more affordable Model 3 would be good, ideally with the potential of options that would allow it still to have higher-end features for those who want to and can pay for them.

Eventually they will have to be cheap enough without the incentive. Government incentives aren't endless.

I can see the model 3 sitting around the $25,000-$35,000 mark without incentives, and still be an excellent car with similar capabilities of the current car. Self driving, 300 mile range, quick, comfortable, reliable. etc.

Not sure what a $10-15k Tesla looks like. It can't just be physically smaller. Small cars aren't particularly aerodynamic. That is also where Chinese manufacturers will be ruthless. IMO I think its a market best filled by others. There isn't much profit there. Also not sure how much of the tech they currently have works at that price point.

The Cybertruck and the Semi are probably more important new projects.

There are huge movements happening. China is basically trying to bankrupt legacy foreign auto manufacturers with the emission laws changes. EV are very aggressive in China. The government is really forcing change, probably due to concerns like oil dependency, but also environmental. The US and China are at economic competition with each other. Tesla needs to make sure their existing products remain IMO the best or benchmarks in their class.

 

[WyoDude]

Thankful others of you are out here doing the Lords work explaining to people why there isn’t EPA ratings for non-American products/companies

 

[mlambert890]

Eventually they will have to be cheap enough without the incentive. Government incentives aren't endless.

I can see the model 3 sitting around the $25,000-$35,000 mark without incentives, and still be an excellent car with similar capabilities of the current car. Self driving, 300 mile range, quick, comfortable, reliable. etc.

Not sure what a $10-15k Tesla looks like. It can't just be physically smaller. Small cars aren't particularly aerodynamic. That is also where Chinese manufacturers will be ruthless. IMO I think its a market best filled by others. There isn't much profit there. Also not sure how much of the tech they currently have works at that price point.

The Cybertruck and the Semi are probably more important new projects.

There are huge movements happening. China is basically trying to bankrupt legacy foreign auto manufacturers with the emission laws changes. EV are very aggressive in China. The government is really forcing change, probably due to concerns like oil dependency, but also environmental. The US and China are at economic competition with each other. Tesla needs to make sure their existing products remain IMO the best or benchmarks in their class.

Right now the cheapest possible Model 3 with anything that can realistically be called "self driving" (EAP) is $50k, and that's not a 300 mi range car. You think they can cut this price in half while increasing range? Not buying it.

The current Model 3 is a $50k car (albeit in most ways it really doesn't feel like one as it is). A $25k Tesla isn't going to be a $50k Model 3 that they've somehow figured out how to sell for $25k anytime soon.

 

[dusty22]

Of course, there is still some self-selection... those who like, or do not mind, the yoke bought and kept their yoke cars. Those who hate it did not buy in the first place, or (if they found out after buying that they hate it) sold their cars to buy something else.

I could probably live with a yoke if the car kept the turn signal stalk and the shifter. But, after watching this video about the Model S yoke, I don't know. It looks like an impractical, unintuitive design that would take away a lot of the pleasure of driving the car.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

Those Bjorn videos can tend to be a little dry, but this one was an enjoyable and literal shiistorm for the first 24 minutes until he finally snapped and started using the f-word at the thought of this inanity afflicting Project Highland.

Bravo Bjorn.

 

[Kevy Baby]

The current Model 3 is a $50k car (albeit in most ways it really doesn't feel like one as it is). A $25k Tesla isn't going to be a $50k Model 3 that they've somehow figured out how to sell for $25k anytime soon.

The current cash price of a base Model 3 is US$41,990 (before the current rebate and the BS "Potential Savings"). Not sure where you are getting a $50K figure.

 

[pdx_m3s]

Model 3 was priced $37-38k from mid-2020 to Q1-2021, and that was with a more expensive nickel pack. There is still room for it to drop more this year if supply/demand justify it.

 

[Phido]

Model 3 was priced $37-38k from mid-2020 to Q1-2021, and that was with a more expensive nickel pack. There is still room for it to drop more this year if supply/demand justify it.

Its a $34,000 car in China, today.

Tesla Significantly Cut Model 3 And Model Y Prices In China

Tesla sharply reduced prices of its Made-in-China (MIC) Model 3 and Model Y cars in China in an attempt to boost sales.

insideevs.com

I think its entirely possible to sell it profitably at a $30,000 car and pull $4k worth of cost out of it..

• Remove USS
• Remove Charger
• Put in new high density battery but keep same charge capacity.
• Lose front Brembo's
• Mega castings front and rear
• Cheaper inverter
• reduce rare earths and high cost minerals
• Production efficiencies
• Cheaper tyres

The current Model 3 is a $50k car (albeit in most ways it really doesn't feel like one as it is). A $25k Tesla isn't going to be a $50k Model 3 that they've somehow figured out how to sell for $25k anytime soon.

Not sure Tesla Model 3 RWD is a $50k USD car. $25k would be quite a journey, and likely they would have to call it that because it would be a much cheaper car with a much cheaper price point.