Reverse instead of Drive by Mistake?

[PianoAl]

Three times in the two years I've had Nick, I've shifted to reverse instead of drive by mistake. In all instances I started going backwards before realizing the mistake. Dangerous.

Today, this is what happened: I was stopped at a construction zone. When the flagger turned the sign from Stop to Slow, I thought that autopilot was still on, so I pushed the stalk up to turn it off. Because AP wasn't on, this put me into reverse.

This is a classic mode error or state error, and when I was a programmer, we tried to avoid state-dependent buttons.

I see that it has happened to others was well: Forward and reverse

 

[brancky3]

Today, this is what happened: I was stopped at a construction zone. When the flagger turned the sign from Stop to Slow, I thought that autopilot was still on, so I pushed the stalk up to turn it off. Because AP wasn't on, this put me into reverse.

.... how? If you're stopped, autopilot isn't on.

 

[jjrandorin]

Autopilot can bring the car to a stop, and also resume from that stop. With that being said, I am unclear of how this is supposed to be programmed around. People try to engineer around "human error" all the time, so I get that part, but I dont see in which circumstance a stopped vehicle should ignore shifting into reverse (since the OP commanded the car to shift into reverse by their actions).

 

[PianoAl]

Autopilot can bring the car to a stop, and also resume from that stop. With that being said, I am unclear of how this is supposed to be programmed around. People try to engineer around "human error" all the time, so I get that part, but I dont see in which circumstance a stopped vehicle should ignore shifting into reverse (since the OP commanded the car to shift into reverse by their actions).

Agreed. We have a fixed number of physical buttons (stalks, etc), so if we don't want to have to interact with the screen, some buttons/gestures will have to do different things based on state.

However, if willing to do this on the screen, this solves the problem:

Will that ever come to the Model 3?

 

[Hunt3r]

But it's only needs half a click, at worst it should only warn you about shifting into neutral.

 

[PianoAl]

Regarding the screen shifting, I didn't think I'd want that, but now I see that it could prevent a major hassle.

This article from more than a year ago says it will come to 3s soon:

Auto Shift is coming to Tesla Model 3 and Y as an option, says Musk - Tesla Oracle

Tesla CEO Elon Musk says that the new way of Auto Shift is coming to the entire Tesla vehicle lineup (get the full details).

www.teslaoracle.com

 

[AdamVIP]

I wouldnt count on a "fix" to this as its not really broken. My best advice to you is to become accustomed to turning off AP by only pushing up a little bit on the stack (ie before the indent). You dont need to push it up all the way and by only going part way at worse you put yourself into neutral if you hold it too long, never reverse.

 

[brancky3]

Autopilot can bring the car to a stop, and also resume from that stop. With that being said, I am unclear of how this is supposed to be programmed around.

Yea but not for a dude with a stop sign in the road. You'd have to hit the brakes in this case.

 

[father_of_6]

This is a classic mode error or state error, and when I was a programmer, we tried to avoid state-dependent buttons.

Agreed. The right stalk could easily be reserved for gear selection only. Autopilot could be enabled on the screen, or perhaps a long downward hold of the gear stalk.

I recall one post where the driver made a habit of pressing the right stalk down two times to get from park to drive (because of impatience while waiting for the car to initialize)... then accidentally did that in a drive-thru and autopilot took off. I'd def call that operator error, but it won't be the last time it happens to someone since the right stalk is shared among functions.

 

[jjrandorin]

Agreed. The right stalk could easily be reserved for gear selection only. Autopilot could be enabled on the screen, or perhaps a long downward hold of the gear stalk.

I recall one post where the driver made a habit of pressing the right stalk down two times to get from park to drive (because of impatience while waiting for the car to initialize)... then accidentally did that in a drive-thru and autopilot took off. I'd def call that operator error, but it won't be the last time it happens to someone since the right stalk is shared among functions.

Yes, I remember that thread very clearly too. It was originally framed as a "unintended acceleration / car took off by itself" thread, but they described what happened and it was pretty clear they did it themselves.

I agree with you as well that it certainly wont be the first time, and @PianoAl certainly isnt the first, nor will he be the last, to do what was mentioned.

Human machine experts spend a ton of time trying to engineer around "human error" because humans definitely do stuff wrong, all the time, and need to be protected from themselves. I am not one of those Human machine experts, but I happen to agree with you that the shifter / stalk should do one thing and one thing only, which is shift the car drive mode in the standard ways we are accustomed to.

With that being said, I dont know what the right answer is, since engaging and disengaging these modes should be intuitive, easy and fast. Nothing on the touchscreen fits that definition (since you have to take your eyes off the road to engage the touchscreen virtually every time you use it).

Once I am on the road driving, for me, the touch screen is a passive navigation device. I try to do nothing to physically interact with it. I use voice commands where possible, or only interact the smallest amount I can for the least amount of time.

 

[Ogre]

Autopilot can bring the car to a stop, and also resume from that stop. With that being said, I am unclear of how this is supposed to be programmed around. People try to engineer around "human error" all the time, so I get that part, but I dont see in which circumstance a stopped vehicle should ignore shifting into reverse (since the OP commanded the car to shift into reverse by their actions).

Agree with you in general. I've never accidentally put the car in reverse and don't see this as a big problem. That said, there is a fairly simple "fix" they could implement.

Change it so you use the park button to drop out of autopilot instead of the forward/ reverse motion. Then your bad case is the car is in park instead of forward.

I don't think it's confusing enough to change at this point myself, but if there were a lot of people making this mistake maybe it would be worthwhile to think about.

 

[PianoAl]

With that being said, I dont know what the right answer is, since engaging and disengaging these modes should be intuitive, easy and fast. Nothing on the touchscreen fits that definition (since you have to take your eyes off the road to engage the touchscreen virtually every time you use it).

Right. I was going to say that changing into D or R only happens when stationary, but you can be going up to 5 MPH when shifting. I'm a big fan of shifting while moving, and I wouldn't want to use the screen while doing a three-point turn, for example.

The quick solution for me would be to offer the screen shifting as an optional alternative but keep the stalk interface. Then, I could choose to use it exclusively.

Elon's "input is error" statement has some merit.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Agree with you in general. I've never accidentally put the car in reverse and don't see this as a big problem. That said, there is a fairly simple "fix" they could implement.

Change it so you use the park button to drop out of autopilot instead of the forward/ reverse motion. Then your bad case is the car is in park instead of forward.

Isn't it the case that when the Park button is used while the car is moving, it activates the parking brake as an emergency brake?

Perhaps a simpler fix would have been separating the cruise control function by making it pull/push instead of overloading the up/down. But changing that now would go against what a lot of drivers are currently used to.

 

[thesmokingman]

Maybe you need to get one of those HUDs for more clarity?

 

[Ogre]

Isn't it the case that when the Park button is used while the car is moving, it activates the parking brake as an emergency brake?

Perhaps a simpler fix would have been separating the cruise control function by making it pull/push instead of overloading the up/down. But changing that now would go against what a lot of drivers are currently used to.

If you are moving, the park button does nothing currently. I’ve done this a few times by mistake.

I don’t think any fix is needed myself.

 

[dmurphy]

I actually prefer the mechanics of the legacy S/X. A dedicated Autopilot stalk. Obviously “too late now” but it really worked well ergonomically.

 

[Need]

I have yet to put my car in reverse but have gone into Natural a few times when I thought AP was on and was trying to turn it off by pushing it up while moving. It was kind of scary the first time when I didn't know what happened and pushing the accelerator does nothing. Good thing I don't have FSD so would never think that I have AP on at a stop and put the car in reverse.

 

[bay74]

I am unclear of how this is supposed to be programmed around

Me either given current hardware, but my view is that a better solution would be a shift stalk which is positional, providing you instant feedback without taking your eyes off the road. I find the shift stalk to be one of the most annoying things in my 3, because sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Depends on ... stuff, like how long ago you pressed the brake pedal, your speed, etc... Stupid.

 

[father_of_6]

I find the shift stalk to be one of the most annoying things in my 3, because sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Depends on ... stuff, like how long ago you pressed the brake pedal, your speed, etc... Stupid.

I think it works flawlessly. I don't use autopilot or FSD though.

 

[father_of_6]

If you are moving, the park button does nothing currently. I’ve done this a few times by mistake.

I *think* you hold it for 2 seconds to engage the emergency brake.