Review of Honda Clarity Fuel Cell Vehicle (plus planned switch to Tesla)
- Thread starter tps5352
- Start date
Is this to me? (Is "OP" original poster?) Assuming yes:
My longest drives with the Clarity FCV have been to the southern San Francisco Bay area and back (from Sacramento area). What's that, about 250 miles total? When hydrogen was/is available, no problem. There is fueling in San Ramon (I-680), Hayward (I-580 x I-880), and Palo Alto (Hwy-101), for example. In fact, the areas encircling San Francisco Bay area are peppered by a small but theoretically adequate (until the June 2019 hydrogen explosion) number of hydrogen fueling spots. And with a confidence-building 250-300-mile range for the Clarity FCV (depending on driving style), these trips (joyfully and legally using the HOV diamond lanes, I might add) were as anxiety-free as possible (what with the notorious Bay-area commute traffic).
As with Tesla cars, the Honda digital display map system includes the locations of most hydrogen fueling spots, so they are easy to identify and navigate to by GPS. (Side-note: GPS! What an incredible technological marvel.)
But you raise an important concern.
I am single and retired, and my driving needs are modest. (I suspect, but do not know for sure, that for various reasons so far the Clarity has appealed mostly to Boomers.) But for most younger, active, family-oriented folks the Honda Clarity FCV could probably not be the sole car in a household. As long as drivers want only to access the greater Sacramento, San Francisco-Oakland, and Los Angeles areas, fine. (Disneyland--totally doable.) But forget easily traveling to Eureka and the redwoods of northern California, Palm Springs, the (beautiful) eastern side of the Sierras, Yosemite, the Lassan and Shasta areas in nor-Cal, and anywhere outside of California (e.g., Las Vegas, Phoenix, etc.). The infrastructure (hydrogen fuel) just doesn't exist. See here for a map to existing and planned California fueling sites:
Stations Map | California Fuel Cell Partnership
Note: To partially address the "California vacation road-trip problem", Honda provides a free 21-day luxury car rental program for Clarity FCV drivers. So an LA family could rent a nice Avis car for free and drive to Las Vegas or Phoenix, for example. Additional free rental miles from Avis were also provided by Honda spur-of-the-moment during the height of the 2019 NorCal hydrogen fuel crisis (I utilized this service for a week). But car rentals can still be inconvenient (you have to pick up and return the car to a spot not at your house) and never entirely "free." And it is for just 21 days over three years.
Speaking of which, I imagine that the 2019 northern California hydrogen-fuel crisis must have really thrown marketing and sales into disarray, vis-à-vis the overall attractiveness of Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai FCVs to younger, more active folks. I don't know what drivers in the SF Bay area were doing the weeks and weeks when there was almost no hydrogen available (except for distant San Ramon north of the I-680 x I-580 Interchange at Dublin). Just not driving their Clarity FCVs, I guess. I saw one Honda left temporarily abandoned at the West Sacramento hydrogen fuel pump.
We must remind ourselves that (well-established and prestigious industrial manufacturer) Honda's hydrogen fuel cell program is still experimental, purposefully cautious, and limited in scope by design. The manufacturers want government environmental credits, and they want to investigate a potential market before greater investment (which has already been considerable). And they have to work closely with hydrogen fuel suppliers. Installing a hydrogen fuel pump is VERY expensive and apparently still a regulatory hassle. Meanwhile, compare Honda's approach to Tesla's brash, full-blown attack (my perception) on marketing, sales, and promotion starting with release of the Models S (in 2012) and X (2015) and the huge (crazy?) investment in infrastructure (including super-chargers and dealerships) seemingly overnight across the U.S. and world. Musk's philosophy seemed to be, "If you build it, they will come" (and, "Let's throw money at it."). Which business model will ultimately win has yet to be determined, I guess.
- As mentioned, Honda quality is generally excellent and certainly on display in this car. It is a new-fangled high-tech fuel cell car, but it's also a Honda, with all that etails, both good (quality) and bad (exterior styling--ha, ha).
- Service quality at Honda of Oakland and AutoNation Honda of Roseville (near Sacramento) was good, and a far cry better than in the "old days." Conventional dealerships are not my favorite places--oozing with testosterone-fueled competitiveness (even by female salespeople) and generally stressful. But there now seems to be a much greater emphasis on customer satisfaction (due to industry lawsuits?). As mentioned, my service trips were limited (a testament to the Clarity's quality), so my experience may not be representative.
- Important Note: I should have mentioned in my original post that Clarity FCVs are only available to lease from a limited numbers of Honda dealerships (e.g., just six in northern California). And all sales and service must be done at those dealers (with their specifically fuel-cell trained service-people), not at any other Honda dealers and certainly not at non-Honda service centers. So that is another possible downside (but arguably no worse than the Tesla situation).
- What would things be like once the (expensive) batteries or fuel cell stack wear out (in 5 or 10 years?), I don't know. Probably VERY expensive to service. With just a cost-effective 3-year lease, not my problem.
- I've got some deafness/tinnitus in left ear (thanks to an acoustic neuroma). But because it is electric, road (e.g., tire) noise is more noticeable (as for other EVs). And the car makes all kinds of "plumbing" sounds when you park it. (As various gasses are pumped here and there, I suppose. Kind of analogous to an inkjet computer printer doing its internal maintenance when you shut it off. I just ignore it.) In general, because the Clarity FCV is semi-luxurious, cabin noise is kept to a minimum. My sense (from just one test drive) is that the Toyota Mirai is not quite so well built (e.g., sound-proofing is not as extensive), but no offense intended to Toyota owners.
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nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I know FAR more people using the supposed future dominance of H2 to keep their fools fuel addiction than those that have actually broken their fools fuel addiction with H2. IMO the last thing the oil majors would want is for this illusion that a Hydrogen economy is just around the corner to be broken.
GoergeJetson
Member
Yes, definitely interesting. Thank you.
As a layperson (non-engineer and non-energy expert) trying to make sense out of an important debate about a complex issue, I try to listen to as many, and as non-biased, sources as possible.
I do think that both plug-in electric and fuel cell electric vehicles attempt to take a serious "nonpoint source (NPS) pollution" problem--the collectively-large production of gaseous pollution by millions and millions of individually small mobile sources (cars and trucks)--and substituting for it theoretically more easily manageable "point source pollution" at much fewer, though individually larger, "point sources" (e.g., industrial facilities that produce electricity and hydrogen). There will probably always be adverse impacts from large-scale energy production in the conceivable future. The trick is to contain, constrain, and manage, and appropriately regulate them.
mblakele
beep! beep!
That's an entirely reasonable point of view. You can see how well California is managing those point sources associated with electricity generation here:
California ISO - Emissions
And for the whole US there's this (as of March 2018):
New Data Show Electric Vehicles Continue to Get Cleaner
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
If you're interested we have a long running thread on hydrogen vs battery
Hydrogen vs. Battery
In ten years of debate nothing has changed the basic physics to make hydrogen fuel cells viable.
AdamMacDon
Member
The review of the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell was awfully friendly. As a Toyota Mirai driver and now a Tesla Model S driver, I have to add the the fuel costs is 3X the gasoline cost. I have talked to Clarity drivers while waiting in long lines for hydrogen. Like the Mirai drivers they like the car very much, but the nightmare of getting fuel is overwhelming;
Also, getting fuel here in Southern California has been ABYSMAL for at least a year and a half. Also the system that tells you which stations are operational is WORTHLESS. I have been pleading with Toyota to take the car back for over a year. The Clarity has the same fuel supply problems as the Mirai.
The only good thing about owning a Mirai is that I liked the experience of electric drive so much that purchased a used 2014 Tesla Model S. I love it and just have to plug it in at home to drive. No more chasing broken or empty fuel stations.
Also, getting fuel here in Southern California has been ABYSMAL for at least a year and a half. Also the system that tells you which stations are operational is WORTHLESS. I have been pleading with Toyota to take the car back for over a year. The Clarity has the same fuel supply problems as the Mirai.
The only good thing about owning a Mirai is that I liked the experience of electric drive so much that purchased a used 2014 Tesla Model S. I love it and just have to plug it in at home to drive. No more chasing broken or empty fuel stations.
As far as driving around with Hydrogen gas in the back seat, I do not think it is any worse than gasoline. If it leaks it does not leave a vapor trail back to the source like gasoline.
My opinion on pure electric vs Hydorgen is that the stations are too expensive (2 million to build) to build and there will never be enough to service the ever expanding numbers of Mirai's. Having driven one for almost 3 years, the number of stations in Orange county has not increased nearly enough to supply the number of cars on the road. Imagine waiting in line for fuel behind 4,5 or up to 10 people in line to get fuel. Plus the stations run out of pressure after 3-4 fillups.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Is it worth reading Darryl Siry's Blog which kicked off the whole large thread in 2008? So far, I am unable to access his blog.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I'd say the first page of comments about it, especially Doug's, cover it well enough. Then you can randomly jump around and probably see the exact same arguments over the last ten years, nothing has changed to advance the basic physics, nor can it, because it's physics 
Curious George
Member
It's not like you were paying for the hydrogen. And because of these likely issues, you got a very sweet deal, as the filling stations play catch up. How much did you buy your used Model S for? Does it still qualify for the HOV access?
The hydrogen cars are too successful for the current state of fueling stations (exponential growth anyone?).
This just means, the state has spent too much imposing EVs on people that don't work for majority of people, and too little to build the H2 stations rapidly. There are the regulatory issues also. The hydrogen FUD is real strong in many circles.
But the next gen H2 stations and existing station expansions should solve these issues, albeit slowly.
Here is UCI expanding to 4 nozzles and 8000 refills a month. When looking at station cost, you need to consider how many cars and buses it serves. Find me one electric car fast charger that charges cars, buses and trucks.
The Most Utilized Hydrogen Fueling Station in California Gets the Green Light to Expand, with the Help of MSRC Funding | Mobile Source Air Pollution Reduction Review Committee
Because demand is so high, UCI applied to the MSRC, and the other agencies, for a grant to expand the capacity and daily dispensing capability. The expansion will allow in excess of 800 kg/day of liquid hydrogen to be delivered from one to four fueling dispensers. On-site storage will also be increased, further strengthening the hydrogen supply chain, and limiting impacts to the consumers. At least 33 percent of the hydrogen will be renewable.
“Today, well over 100 vehicles are served on a daily basis, as well as fuel cell electric buses,” Dr. Samuelsen recounted. “On a monthly basis, this would exceed 3,000 individual fills. After the increased capability, more than 8,000 vehicles are projected to be served on a monthly basis.”
Station users have expressed excitement about the station’s expansion. According to Dr. Samuelsen, the station regularly experiences long lines (“up to nine vehicles before patience wanes,” quipped Dr. Samuelsen) to fill up at a dispenser. He said the new station’s capability will have four fueling positions that will both dramatically reduce the wait time and dramatically increase the reliability of the station.
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nwdiver
Well-Known Member
What kind of FCEV do you drive? A Honda clarity or a Mirai or something different? Do you have problems finding fuel? How many miles have you driven? Do you go on road trips?
And.... H2 isn't available because it's terrible as an energy carrier and the logistics are near impossible... NOT because they are 'too successful for the current state of fueling stations'... this is what that looks like...
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OP's excellent review was divided into three parts. The car, its performance and fueling. He gave good overall marks in the first two categories and a fail in the last. FCEVs have been held back because of fueling and there are a couple of aspects to this
1. A FCEV cannot fuel at the owners home or place of work
2. A FCEV cannot use the Tesla SC network
3. FCEV's no longer have a range advantage over BEVs (Tesla)
If you look at the InsideEVs sales scorecard (what happened? where's the October data) it is clear that there is really only one brand of EV selling: the one that uses the Super Charging network. This is interesting as most charging is done at home yet a big driver in the decision to go electric hinges on the potential buyer feeling that he can get "gas" when he ranges far from home. Elon Musk is a smart guy and to me the clearest sign of his genius is his decision to build that SC network. Lot's of people on this forum have placed deposits on the Rivian R1T which, from all evidence looks as if it is going to be a well made, feature laden truck. If one looks at the Rivian forums a recurring theme is the implications of the fact that the R1T will not have access to the SC network (and people begging the company to strike a deal with Tesla). Those folks are not sleeping that well this week in anticipation of the revealing of the Tesla truck this Thursday. Presumably it will, if not too other-worldly, be competitive with the R1T but it will carry one huge advantage: access to the SC network.
FCEVs will displace BEV's (at least in the auto sector) when they have available the equivalent of the SC system and that isn't going to happen for a long, long time - unless there is some breakthough. The SC network represents a huge investment but the technology involved is readily available at relatively modest cost. You need a 100 kVa transformer - you go to Siemens and order one. You stack the rectifier modules you are already making for your cars into cabinets, wire to the transformers, breakers and controls and you are on your way. The components are found in any medium sized factory anywhere in the world. A hydrogen filling station, OTOH, requires much more specialized technology e.g. containment that must withstand unusually high pressure and be made of special materials that don't get quickly embrittled by hydrogen. Certainly this technology exists but it is found in relatively few specialized industrial settings. That's why I believe that hydrogen, an excellent store for energy if you can get it to the place where the energy is needed, will have its place in industrial settings such as electrical generation plants, perhaps at bus and truck depots but not in the Walmart parking lot. Hydrogen as a motor fuel is dying and, of course, the recent explosions at fueling stations aren't helping.
Now fortunately the wacko left has a huge influence on governments around the world and politicians are, at this point, willing to "waste" billions of the tax payers' dollars on "green" initiatives. The "hydrogen economy" is one of them and while lots of money will go down the rat hole of useless research that is the way science works and is the source of breakthroughs one of which may make hydrogen viable as an automotive fuel viable. There is an Aussie/Israeli consortium that has supposedly found some organic liquid that can be easily nudged into picking up hydrogen in large quantity and as easily nudged into giving it up in a vehicle. The concept is that this liquid would be hydrogen laden at a factory, trucked to a refueling point, and filled into your car. As you drive some sort of catalytic converter would release the hydrogen. When depleted you go back to the filling station where the depleted liquid is pumped out of the car and returned to the plant to be recharged. There was also a guy at CSIRO (also Oz) that supposedly had some membrane technology that would take in ammonia and put out hydrogen and nitrogen. I'm not that keen on having large quantities of ammonia in my car or garage but could probably be convinced. So one day, maybe but for now it appears that hydrogen is dying.
1. A FCEV cannot fuel at the owners home or place of work
2. A FCEV cannot use the Tesla SC network
3. FCEV's no longer have a range advantage over BEVs (Tesla)
If you look at the InsideEVs sales scorecard (what happened? where's the October data) it is clear that there is really only one brand of EV selling: the one that uses the Super Charging network. This is interesting as most charging is done at home yet a big driver in the decision to go electric hinges on the potential buyer feeling that he can get "gas" when he ranges far from home. Elon Musk is a smart guy and to me the clearest sign of his genius is his decision to build that SC network. Lot's of people on this forum have placed deposits on the Rivian R1T which, from all evidence looks as if it is going to be a well made, feature laden truck. If one looks at the Rivian forums a recurring theme is the implications of the fact that the R1T will not have access to the SC network (and people begging the company to strike a deal with Tesla). Those folks are not sleeping that well this week in anticipation of the revealing of the Tesla truck this Thursday. Presumably it will, if not too other-worldly, be competitive with the R1T but it will carry one huge advantage: access to the SC network.
FCEVs will displace BEV's (at least in the auto sector) when they have available the equivalent of the SC system and that isn't going to happen for a long, long time - unless there is some breakthough. The SC network represents a huge investment but the technology involved is readily available at relatively modest cost. You need a 100 kVa transformer - you go to Siemens and order one. You stack the rectifier modules you are already making for your cars into cabinets, wire to the transformers, breakers and controls and you are on your way. The components are found in any medium sized factory anywhere in the world. A hydrogen filling station, OTOH, requires much more specialized technology e.g. containment that must withstand unusually high pressure and be made of special materials that don't get quickly embrittled by hydrogen. Certainly this technology exists but it is found in relatively few specialized industrial settings. That's why I believe that hydrogen, an excellent store for energy if you can get it to the place where the energy is needed, will have its place in industrial settings such as electrical generation plants, perhaps at bus and truck depots but not in the Walmart parking lot. Hydrogen as a motor fuel is dying and, of course, the recent explosions at fueling stations aren't helping.
Now fortunately the wacko left has a huge influence on governments around the world and politicians are, at this point, willing to "waste" billions of the tax payers' dollars on "green" initiatives. The "hydrogen economy" is one of them and while lots of money will go down the rat hole of useless research that is the way science works and is the source of breakthroughs one of which may make hydrogen viable as an automotive fuel viable. There is an Aussie/Israeli consortium that has supposedly found some organic liquid that can be easily nudged into picking up hydrogen in large quantity and as easily nudged into giving it up in a vehicle. The concept is that this liquid would be hydrogen laden at a factory, trucked to a refueling point, and filled into your car. As you drive some sort of catalytic converter would release the hydrogen. When depleted you go back to the filling station where the depleted liquid is pumped out of the car and returned to the plant to be recharged. There was also a guy at CSIRO (also Oz) that supposedly had some membrane technology that would take in ammonia and put out hydrogen and nitrogen. I'm not that keen on having large quantities of ammonia in my car or garage but could probably be convinced. So one day, maybe but for now it appears that hydrogen is dying.
Dear OP, does your car's winter range drop?
I can't seem to get over 280 during summer months and winter is even worse...about 240-250miles.
According to the car, i get about 60miles / kg, with the tank size at 5.5kg, I should easily have 330miles.
The dealer said thats normal of course and didn't want to troubleshoot the issue.
I can't seem to get over 280 during summer months and winter is even worse...about 240-250miles.
According to the car, i get about 60miles / kg, with the tank size at 5.5kg, I should easily have 330miles.
The dealer said thats normal of course and didn't want to troubleshoot the issue.
Sorry, I have never paid any attention. I live in the Central Valley of California. near Sacramento. As you know, while it does get "cold" (occasional frost and, very rarely, a couple of snow flakes) its a Mediterranean climate. Winter temperatures are pretty mild compared to the Mid-west or North-east. And I haven't driven at the higher elevations (e.g., near Tahoe).
Coincidentally, I took the car in for fueling (West Sacramento) yesterday. (After six months, hydrogen fuel availability at the three Sacramento-area pumps is finally more or less back to "normal.") Pulling away from the pump I noticed this:
(And no, I don't mean the considerable dust on the display.) Could it be "bad" hydrogen fuel? Haven't found anything directly applicable with a quick Google search. And I did not notice any power reduction while driving it (the 12 miles) home. I take it in for service tomorrow (Saturday). Fingers crossed that it is not something serious like needing a new fuel cell stack. I shouldn't have to pay anything (I hope) but it is inconvenient. Might need a loaner car.
I only have until May until I have to return this Clarity. It has been good, mechanically, until now. As you can see, 15,400 miles. Had its yearly service and a 1/2-day recall for replacement of some kind of pump just recently.
As others have said, it is new technology so occasional mechanical issues are to be expected. This is still a somewhat experimental program.
