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Risk of aluminum battery to tesla model

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Chickenlittle, Nov 7, 2014.

  1. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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    I do invest in alcoa and at investor day they mentioned aluminum battery. Mentioned it as range extender in leaf and Prius with a third company experimenting next year with it. My concern is that a leaf or Prius that can go over 500 miles would lessen tesla battery advantage and supercharger network. I suspect it would bring gen3 car to market sooner if tesla included it with smaller lithium battery.
     
  2. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    It will certainly reduce the gap.

    It is my understand that the cost will be equivalent to $3.50/gallon.

    Then we need to see how convenient it is to swap cores and electrolyte. I heard like changing oil at Jiffy Lube?

    And how the added weight affects efficiency, performance, handling, and usable interior/storage room.
     
  3. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Member

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    Could you please provide a link to Aluminium battery info and why it can only be used as range extender?
     
  4. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    I think Elon's comment during the ER call applies here: “The battery industry has more BS in it than any other industry,”
     
  5. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    You can use it as the only battery I suppose but then you lose the cost and convenience advantage of home charging.


    Alcoa/Phinergy is marketing the aluminum air battery as a range extender. You can just google it and find plenty of information.
     
  6. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    1 kg aluminum ($2.00) gives 4 kwh energy (about $0.50).
    I assume the aluminum can be recycled at some cost but it also uses a silver catalyst and some fancy membranes.
    They are predicting costs on par with petrol... doesn't sound like a threat to anything.
     
  7. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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    Not rechargeable they replace aluminum and recycle. Is on alcoa site and discussed by ceo of alcoa at the investor day. Can replay on investor site of alcoa. It essentially takes range anxiety out of the equation. Not an expert on it but I had seen video where they just pulled aluminum plate out and replaced with another. No loss of charge over years. I suspect they have sent musk a cell since tesla and alcoa close
     
  8. RyanT

    RyanT Member

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    I wonder what the performance of the battery is like. Does it require cooling? If it has the same output as the existing Tesla battery pack they could add it in as an option. If the performance is less and it requires cooling it would get complicated. Like "0-60 in 3.2 seconds on normal mode, 0-60 in 7 seconds in range extended mode" etc.
     
  9. Electric700

    Electric700 Member

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    So true, and I prefer Tesla's model. We shouldn't have to pay extra to use the aluminum battery technology, which would also reduce the attractiveness of EVs/EREVs using it.
     
  10. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    That is why they are not marketing aluminum air as a replacement for a rechargeable lithium-ion battery packs but as a range extender for convenience.

    I would rather drive paying the equivalent of $.90/gallon charging at home than go to a battery swap station and pay the equivalent of $3.50 per gallon. But at 2 AM driving home having used 80 of my 84 rated mile range on my LEAF I would gladly pay $3.50 per gallon to make it the rest of the way home. Even at reduced performance/acceleration.

    The aluminum cores and the electrolyte also needs to be changed.
     
  11. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Member

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    So how is this different from Gas burning range extender as employed in i3? Small motocycle motor with compact exhaust/gas tank? Sounds like reinventing the wheel to me, except for "ideological" reasons of burning no dinosaurs
     
  12. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    I doubt that primary cell batteries will ever truly compete with rechargeable batteries.

    I wouldn't worry.
     
  13. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

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    500-1000 additional miles vs 70. And zero carbon emissions.

    That is the whole point. If you don't care about the "ideological" imperative of reducing carbon emissions plus other pollution and not funding oil based tyrants then a small vehicle with a small efficient ICE is currently the cheapest form of auto mobility. Soon enough it will be BEV.

    Do you want to fund Putin's Imperial Army looking West?
     
  14. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Member

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    I for one welcome our new whatever overlords, i kid, the bmw range extender was bastadized for US, much better deal in Germany. Gas range extender makes more sense imo, unless aluminium battery price is reduced. What is the point of driving highly efficient BEV in Norway when China uses coal for energy without even simplest filters?
    But lets not waste our time with discussion about things we cant change
     
  15. AndreN

    AndreN Member

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    Not only are costs on par with gasoline, so is efficiency. From Wikipedia's page on Al-air batteries:
    "The total fuel efficiency during the cycle process in Al/air electric vehicles (EVs) can be 15% (present stage) or 20% (projected)"
    Not very impressive.
     
  16. Electric700

    Electric700 Member

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    All the more reason not to waste R & D money on that.

    As for advanced lithium-ion batteries that can last 25 years or more? I'm all for that. Here's one endeavor: Ultra-fast charging batteries that can be 70% recharged in just two minutes -- ScienceDaily.
     
  17. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Basically these Al-Air batteries will be something very similar to a hydrogen fuel cell with regards to convenience, cost and environmental foot print. The value proposition just isn't good enough. Especially when you consider the theoretical Al-Air battery (not on the market) with Tesla current Li-Ion (on the market).

    To quote Elon some more (in addition to the BS quote): "Don't send us a PowerPoint, send us an actual working cell".
     
  18. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    110kWh battery next year will be curtains for LiAir + Tesla speculations.
    And P110D will blow away P85D.
     
  19. Chickenlittle

    Chickenlittle Active Member

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  20. bsd

    bsd Member

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    I think you're forgetting remote and/or underpopulated areas. It's not even that Tesla or some third party won't install superchargers, but that these regions are off-grid. Al-Air provides a zero-emissions solution for those areas (they're already flying in fuel).
     

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