Rivian apparently building their own charging network

[scottf200]

Rivian can't rely on the CCS1 network.
John Voelcker - Global Auto Industry Analyst and Writer

 

[jelloslug]

tesla vehicles in north america can use tesla units, both superchargers and L2 unit, they can use j1772 L2 units with an adaptor and they can use Chademo units with an adaptor. in North america tesla does not use CCS.

There are 3rd party adapters for CCS in North America.

 

[jelloslug]

because the CCS system that rivian is employing is the defacto industry standard, the tesla system is a proprietary tesla system

How many CCS plugs (not locations) are in the US?

 

[jelloslug]

Rivian can't rely on the CCS1 network.
John Voelcker - Global Auto Industry Analyst and Writer

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[mk677]

How many CCS plugs (not locations) are in the US?

thousands, try looking at www.plugshare.com
EA america has hundreds of locations as does chargepoint, greenlots, evgo, blink, and many other networks of chargers

 

[Needsdecaf]

How many CCS plugs (not locations) are in the US?

Last I heard, about 5% more than the number of Supercharger plugs.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Sounds good, but in practice it won’t work.
You going mountain biking for 30 minutes or 3 hrs? You’ll just tie up chargers. Places that offer hiking, mountain biking etc are packed in NH in the summer. I’m sure it’s popular in other places too. And if it’s off the beaten path it won’t be utilized enough.

Nah, that's easily dealt with by idle fees. Make it so punitive that you'd never let your car sit there more than 5 minutes past charging, much less all day. I think the idea should be that if you're on a day hike, you just come back 20-30 minutes early, move to the charger, and charge up while you're stowing your gear. If you're just in there biking 30 minutes or so, no foul.

 

[LoudMusic]

Nah, that's easily dealt with by idle fees. Make it so punitive that you'd never let your car sit there more than 5 minutes past charging, much less all day. I think the idea should be that if you're on a day hike, you just come back 20-30 minutes early, move to the charger, and charge up while you're stowing your gear. If you're just in there biking 30 minutes or so, no foul.

I'm not sure idle fees is the way to go. It just causes people to not use them, which makes them look like a waste of money to the facility. Put them in, let them get used, then when they're constantly in use ADD MORE. That means they're successful.

From the little inquiries I've done, people don't plug into L2 for 30 minutes. They're only interested if they're going to be parked for 2+ hours. I'd only install them at the visitor centers and trailheads that have long use time expectations. And again, when they're in use for the majority of the day INSTALL MORE. The goal isn't to have 2 that aren't in use because people are afraid to. The goal is to have every car in the parking lot plugged in. That takes a parking lot full of plugs.

 

[mk677]

I'm not sure idle fees is the way to go. It just causes people to not use them, which makes them look like a waste of money to the facility. Put them in, let them get used, then when they're constantly in use ADD MORE. That means they're successful.

From the little inquiries I've done, people don't plug into L2 for 30 minutes. They're only interested if they're going to be parked for 2+ hours. I'd only install them at the visitor centers and trailheads that have long use time expectations. And again, when they're in use for the majority of the day INSTALL MORE. The goal isn't to have 2 that aren't in use because people are afraid to. The goal is to have every car in the parking lot plugged in. That takes a parking lot full of plugs.

first off tesla L2 destination units do not apply overstay fees at those units.
I do not know how other networks handle the issue. applying overstay fees is usually done at L3 fast charging units and it is a method to enforce the fact that those spots are for charging not for parking.

afraid of overstay fees scares people from charging?
I don't believe that is a factor. if you are in need of a charge you will charge regardless of overstay fees and you would want to avoid the fees by moving the car once the charge is complete. for the high speed L3 chargers the goal is to provide as many. opportunities for as many cars as possible to use the chargers, not to provide places to park. L2 units are a different animal and etiquette is that if your charging is complete to move out of the spot.
the public L2 units are usually used mainly for overnighting at hotels and are found at many shopping centers, airports and maybe in some parks where shorter term charging is common.
I don't usually bother using an L2 when stopped for a shopping trip, that is more opportunity charging than need based charging.

places where you'd park for awhile like long term parking at airports would be well served by skipping the costly L2 units and just make 110 outlets available. if I am away for a few days the 110 slow charging is all that is necessary. for example my local airport has a dozen or so chargepoint L2 units that offer free charging and no overstay fees but IMHO those L2s are wasteful, at the most a tesla would need eight or so hours to full charge and if I am out of town for a couple of days that spot remains blocked for the duration of my trip. If a 110 wall outlet was available I'd use that, the car could add a few hundred miles of range over a couple of days and nobody would be inconvenienced by a car blocking an L2 unit

 

[jelloslug]

thousands, try looking at www.plugshare.com
EA america has hundreds of locations as does chargepoint, greenlots, evgo, blink, and many other networks of chargers

Plugshare does not say how many overall. Most of the CCS locations are single plug units.

 

[jelloslug]

Last I heard, about 5% more than the number of Supercharger plugs.

What's the number though.

 

[mk677]

Plugshare does not say how many overall. Most of the CCS locations are single plug units.

no they are not. for example EA america has hundreds of locations with multiple units, I think you need to get a bit better informed on this subject

EA STATION COUNT
TYPE
NUMBER
Live stations
569
Coming soon
150

CHARGER COUNT
TYPE
NUMBER
CCS
1892
CCS-CHAdeMO
565
Level 2
113

 

[Needsdecaf]

I'm not sure idle fees is the way to go. It just causes people to not use them, which makes them look like a waste of money to the facility. Put them in, let them get used, then when they're constantly in use ADD MORE. That means they're successful.

From the little inquiries I've done, people don't plug into L2 for 30 minutes. They're only interested if they're going to be parked for 2+ hours. I'd only install them at the visitor centers and trailheads that have long use time expectations. And again, when they're in use for the majority of the day INSTALL MORE. The goal isn't to have 2 that aren't in use because people are afraid to. The goal is to have every car in the parking lot plugged in. That takes a parking lot full of plugs.

The Rivian chargers are NOT L2. They are full DC fast chargers. So your scenario doesn't apply.

What is the Rivian Adventure Network? - Support Center - Rivian

The Rivian Adventure Network is a nationwide network of fast-charging sites — capable of adding up to 140 miles of range in 20 minutes. The Rivian Adventure Network is planned to grow to more than 3,500 fast chargers at over 600 sites by the end of 2023. Open to Rivian owners, these locations...

rivian.com

 

[e of pi]

Last I heard, about 5% more than the number of Supercharger plugs.

What's the number though.

I think @Needsdecaf heard wrong. The EPA's site has some ways to filter by plugs and get reports by actual station connector type as well as locations (though, unlike Plugshare, it can't filter by peak power capability per station or, what would be ideal and neither offers, per plug):
They (as of today) report 10,709 connectors for Tesla Supercharger via the Tesla Supercharger Network (at 1,085 locations). Amusingly, switching to "all" shows 10,716 connectors at 1090 locations, so someplace in the EPA data there's 7 supercharger connectors spread between 5 locations on other networks. I don't know what's up with that and I'm not bored enough to chase it down.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

The EPA's data reports 4,254 stations with a total of 7,709 CCS1 connectors:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

A lot of those are single or two-connector locations, many of which top out below 70 kW (20 kW and 50 kW being common). The 3655 non EA/EC locations have 5,112 CCS connectors total:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

EA and EC together have 603 stations with 2,599 connectors:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

Looking at Plugshare, there's about 184 non-EA/EC CCS1 stations with rated capacity of any plug at the station over 70 kW, most of which looking at images have 2 stalls. A few have more (many of the 30 odd EVGo stations which have gone in with higher power are at least four stalls, like EA), but a fair number are also single stall. Call it about 300 additional connectors (average of 1.6/station)?

There's a few ways to slice-and-dice that data, but the combined CCS network is still smaller than Tesla for the moment by most of them--though not by much on several:

CCS makes up 41% of the (CCS+Tesla) total connectors, including all charge rates.
CCS makes up 80% of the (CCS+Tesla) total locations, including all charge rates.
CCS makes up 42% of the (CCS+Tesla) total locations capable of at least 70 kW charging (and most capable of >70 are also capable of >100 kW)
CCS makes up 21% of the (CCS+Tesla) total connectors capable of at least 70 kW charging

So the CCS network has much wider coverage for all fast charge levels, but has not (yet) caught up to a majority of all higher-power fast charge locations. The plug count is much smaller for both values, particularly in high power, but that may change in the coming years as more stations going in are >100 kW capable, and have at least two and often 4 or more connectors. I included the query links as I intend to check this again in the future. Note for me in the future or anyone playing along at home, you have to copy/paste the link into the address bar, the URL redirects to the base level electric charger query page if you just click it.

 

[mk677]

The Rivian chargers are NOT L2. They are full DC fast chargers. So your scenario doesn't apply.

What is the Rivian Adventure Network? - Support Center - Rivian

The Rivian Adventure Network is a nationwide network of fast-charging sites — capable of adding up to 140 miles of range in 20 minutes. The Rivian Adventure Network is planned to grow to more than 3,500 fast chargers at over 600 sites by the end of 2023. Open to Rivian owners, these locations...

rivian.com

rivian is building 2 side by side systems. an L3 and a L2

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I think @Needsdecaf heard wrong. The EPA's site has some ways to filter by plugs and get reports by actual station connector type as well as locations (though, unlike Plugshare, it can't filter by peak power capability per station or, what would be ideal and neither offers, per plug):
They (as of today) report 10,709 connectors for Tesla Supercharger via the Tesla Supercharger Network (at 1,085 locations). Amusingly, switching to "all" shows 10,716 connectors at 1090 locations, so someplace in the EPA data there's 7 supercharger connectors spread between 5 locations on other networks. I don't know what's up with that and I'm not bored enough to chase it down.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

The EPA's data reports 4,254 stations with a total of 7,709 CCS1 connectors:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

A lot of those are single or two-connector locations, many of which top out below 70 kW (20 kW and 50 kW being common). The 3655 non EA/EC locations have 5,112 CCS connectors total:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

EA and EC together have 603 stations with 2,599 connectors:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

Looking at Plugshare, there's about 184 non-EA/EC CCS1 stations with rated capacity of any plug at the station over 70 kW, most of which looking at images have 2 stalls. A few have more (many of the 30 odd EVGo stations which have gone in with higher power are at least four stalls, like EA), but a fair number are also single stall. Call it about 300 additional connectors (average of 1.6/station)?

There's a few ways to slice-and-dice that data, but the combined CCS network is still smaller than Tesla for the moment by most of them--though not by much on several:

CCS makes up 41% of the (CCS+Tesla) total connectors, including all charge rates.
CCS makes up 80% of the (CCS+Tesla) total locations, including all charge rates.
CCS makes up 42% of the (CCS+Tesla) total locations capable of at least 70 kW charging (and most capable of >70 are also capable of >100 kW)
CCS makes up 21% of the (CCS+Tesla) total connectors capable of at least 70 kW charging

So the CCS network has much wider coverage for all fast charge levels, but has not (yet) caught up to a majority of all higher-power fast charge locations. The plug count is much smaller for both values, particularly in high power, but that may change in the coming years as more stations going in are >100 kW capable, and have at least two and often 4 or more connectors. I included the query links as I intend to check this again in the future. Note for me in the future or anyone playing along at home, you have to copy/paste the link into the address bar, the URL redirects to the base level electric charger query page if you just click it.

Just a minor correction but those websites are maintained by NREL for the Department of Energy, not the EPA. I worked with the NREL folks who support that site for many years.

 

[jelloslug]

I think @Needsdecaf heard wrong. The EPA's site has some ways to filter by plugs and get reports by actual station connector type as well as locations (though, unlike Plugshare, it can't filter by peak power capability per station or, what would be ideal and neither offers, per plug):
They (as of today) report 10,709 connectors for Tesla Supercharger via the Tesla Supercharger Network (at 1,085 locations). Amusingly, switching to "all" shows 10,716 connectors at 1090 locations, so someplace in the EPA data there's 7 supercharger connectors spread between 5 locations on other networks. I don't know what's up with that and I'm not bored enough to chase it down.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

The EPA's data reports 4,254 stations with a total of 7,709 CCS1 connectors:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

A lot of those are single or two-connector locations, many of which top out below 70 kW (20 kW and 50 kW being common). The 3655 non EA/EC locations have 5,112 CCS connectors total:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

EA and EC together have 603 stations with 2,599 connectors:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Electric Vehicle Charging Station Locations

Looking at Plugshare, there's about 184 non-EA/EC CCS1 stations with rated capacity of any plug at the station over 70 kW, most of which looking at images have 2 stalls. A few have more (many of the 30 odd EVGo stations which have gone in with higher power are at least four stalls, like EA), but a fair number are also single stall. Call it about 300 additional connectors (average of 1.6/station)?

There's a few ways to slice-and-dice that data, but the combined CCS network is still smaller than Tesla for the moment by most of them--though not by much on several:

CCS makes up 41% of the (CCS+Tesla) total connectors, including all charge rates.
CCS makes up 80% of the (CCS+Tesla) total locations, including all charge rates.
CCS makes up 42% of the (CCS+Tesla) total locations capable of at least 70 kW charging (and most capable of >70 are also capable of >100 kW)
CCS makes up 21% of the (CCS+Tesla) total connectors capable of at least 70 kW charging

So the CCS network has much wider coverage for all fast charge levels, but has not (yet) caught up to a majority of all higher-power fast charge locations. The plug count is much smaller for both values, particularly in high power, but that may change in the coming years as more stations going in are >100 kW capable, and have at least two and often 4 or more connectors. I included the query links as I intend to check this again in the future. Note for me in the future or anyone playing along at home, you have to copy/paste the link into the address bar, the URL redirects to the base level electric charger query page if you just click it.

I know from my BMW i3 days that almost all of the Chargepoint Now CCS plugs that were put in with the BMW push were a paltry 24 kw.

 

[jelloslug]

no they are not. for example EA america has hundreds of locations with multiple units, I think you need to get a bit better informed on this subject

EA STATION COUNT
TYPE
NUMBER
Live stations
569
Coming soon
150

CHARGER COUNT
TYPE
NUMBER
CCS
1892
CCS-CHAdeMO
565
Level 2
113

EA is not most of the locations. In my area, there is one EA location with 4 plugs and all the other CCS locations are single plug.

 

[mk677]

EA is not most of the locations. In my area, there is one EA location with 4 plugs and all the other CCS locations are single plug.

that is YOUR area, I have no need for fast chargers to be in MY area I need them to be where I'd like to travel to. and the EA network currently mimics the tesla network of a few years ago, which was fairly good for travel on the trunk N/S E/W routes.

 

[mk677]

I know from my BMW i3 days that almost all of the Chargepoint Now CCS plugs that were put in with the BMW push were a paltry 24 kw.

interesting but why is what was relevant to what is?