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Rivian Fast Chargers for Tesla?

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Summary: Need Info on Rivian DCFCs. Is it true that Teslas can only use L2s ?

I posted a thread on supercharger deserts and someone replied that there would be a Rivian charger in Lee VIning, CA soon, my very favorite spot. That lead me to check on plugshare, and it is now working!!! It says 200kW CCS, BUT it says "Rivan Only". Checking on this forum (probably not current) says that Rivian DCFCs are for Rivan ONLY, but we can use L2s, which are useless to me. I'm looking for fast chargers where Tesla SCs (superchargers) are missing.

Does anyone understand why Rivians are allowed at Tesla SC locations, but not the opposite? How is that fair? Are there any reciprocity agreements in the works?

As long as we're at it, does anyone know of any preferential treatment for Tesla drivers at SCs now that they are open to anyone with an adapter? I say this not as a person who doesnt want to share (I WANT everyone to drive an EV to save the planet), but as a person concerned about managing wait times for charging.

Thanks,

-TPC
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Cheapo boring vanilla white MY with small wheels for better efficiency. #greenyourride #evtothebackcountry Electric Backcountry Adventurer
 
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Does anyone understand why Rivians are allowed at Tesla SC locations, but not the opposite?
How is that fair? Are there any reciprocity agreements in the works?

This reminds me that you can run Windows on a Mac but the opposite!!!

I only tried the L2 Rivian chargers and there were available to other cars and were free.
I hope this is still the case.
 
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As long as we're at it, does anyone know of any preferential treatment for Tesla drivers at SCs now that they are open to anyone with an adapter? I say this not as a person who doesnt want to share (I WANT everyone to drive an EV to save the planet), but as a person concerned about managing wait times for charging.
No, but how would that work anyway at an unstaffed supercharger station?

FWIW, I just returned from a road trip between south FL and New England, and didn’t see a single non-Tesla vehicle using a supercharger.
 
Summary: Need Info on Rivian DCFCs. Is it true that Teslas can only use L2s ?

I posted a thread on supercharger deserts and someone replied that there would be a Rivian charger in Lee VIning, CA soon, my very favorite spot. That lead me to check on plugshare, and it is now working!!! It says 200kW CCS, BUT it says "Rivan Only". Checking on this forum (probably not current) says that Rivian DCFCs are for Rivan ONLY,[…].

Does anyone understand why Rivians are allowed at Tesla SC locations, but not the opposite? How is that fair? Are there any reciprocity agreements in the works?

Rivian announced that Tesla cars will be able to use the Rivian Adventure Network in late 2024 or in 2025. I forget which they committed to, and I’m not sure if you may still need a ccs1 adapter to use a Rivian charger.

It will happen, but Rivian software is not as often updated as Tesla firmware and superchargers are. Software changes are a weakness in all the non-Tesla charging networks.

We can only hope …
 
Rivian announced that Tesla cars will be able to use the Rivian Adventure Network in late 2024 or in 2025. I forget which they committed to, and I’m not sure if you may still need a ccs1 adapter to use a Rivian charger.

It will happen, but Rivian software is not as often updated as Tesla firmware and superchargers are. Software changes are a weakness in all the non-Tesla charging networks.

We can only hope …

That's my understanding. Later this year I thought that they were to add credit card billing. They currently are like Tesla used to be.

But there are VERY few of them.

Yes, you'll need a CCS adapter.

They are NOT L2 only, they are DCFC CCS.

Tesla is adding Superchargers at a rapid rate to handle demand. Most Superchargers rarely fill up. Exceptions are CA and Holidays.
 
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There are two Rivian networks, one for anyone to use, L2 using j1772 (Rivian Waypoint Network) and one for DCFC (Rivian Adventure Network/RAN). Where are Rivian Adventure Network chargers located? - Support Center - Rivian. Rivian is planning to allow non-rivians to use RAN, but the current status seems unclear about what are available for other car brands; I thought I read there were a few open but can't find details (and you will need a ccs to nacs adapter to charge a Tesla). Found https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...-non-rivian-owners-in-second-half-2024.24436/
 
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There are two Rivian networks, one for anyone to use, L2 using j1772 (Rivian Waypoint Network) and one for DCFC (Rivian Adventure Network/RAN). Where are Rivian Adventure Network chargers located? - Support Center - Rivian. Rivian is planning to allow non-rivians to use RAN, but the current status seems unclear about what are available for other car brands; I thought I read there were a few open but can't find details (and you will need a ccs to nacs adapter to charge a Tesla). Found https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...-non-rivian-owners-in-second-half-2024.24436/
As far as I know, no RAN sites are currently available to other manufacturers. We're only two days into the "second half of 2024", so that's what one would expect from the previously announced plans.
 
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I have read and been told that Rivians will come with Tesla (NACS) ports starting sometime in 2025. Other brands are converting, also. This will surely result in an extended (but ultimately temporary) period when Superchargers and Rivian charge stations (along with other charging sites) are handling both Tesla cars (all with NACS ports) and Rivian trucks (some with CCS1 and some with NACS ports). I wonder if auto-equipment installers or even the car-manufacturers themselves will offer CCS1-to-NACS charge-port hardware conversions? For most drivers, it is probably easier (and certainly cheaper) just to deal with all the various charging options (see below) by using convenient adapters.

Regardless, eventually new and almost all existing charge stations will slowly convert to NACS equipment. That will not and should not happen immediately, for the obvious reason that many cars in the North American BEV fleet will continue to have CCS1 ports (for, say, 10-20 years and beyond). Will charge stations partially convert--offering combinations of NACS and CCS1 equipment? Has that already begun (I, myself, don't often use DC stations)? Perhaps, but again adapters may be the more economical answer.

Here is a breakdown of current and possible future charge scenarios for two different North American car brands:

TESLA - w/NACS Port​
RIVIAN - w/CCS1 Port​
RIVIAN - with NACS Port​
DC FAST-CHARGE EQUIPMENT
Tesla Supercharger
fully compatible​
NACS-to-CCS1 adapter required​
fully compatible​
Rivian DC Charger (w/CCS1 Plug)
CCS1-to-NACS adapter required​
fully compatible​
CCS1-to-NACS adapter required​
Rivian DC Charger (w/NACS Plug)
fully compatible​
NACS-to-CCS1 adapter required​
fully compatible​
AC CHARGE EQUIPMENT
Wall Connector (w/J1772 Plug)
J1772-to-NACS adapter required​
fully compatible​
J1772-to-NACS adapter required​
Wall Connector (w/NACS Plug)
fully compatible​
NACS-to-J1772 adapter required​
fully compatible​

Based on this, the use of (perhaps just four types of) adapters could possibly get us through the intermediate period to a time when pretty much all BEVs and charge stations are using the same basic charging equipment standard.
 
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I have read and been told that Rivians will come with Tesla (NACS) ports starting sometime in 2025. Other brands are converting, also. This will surely result in an extended (but ultimately temporary) period when Superchargers and Rivian charge stations (along with other charging sites) are handling both Tesla cars (all with NACS ports) and Rivian trucks (some with CCS1 and some with NACS ports). I wonder if auto-equipment installers or even the car-manufacturers themselves will offer CCS1-to-NACS charge-port hardware conversions? For most drivers, it is probably easier (and certainly cheaper) just to deal with all the various charging options (see below) by using convenient adapters.

Regardless, eventually new and almost all existing charge stations will slowly convert to NACS equipment. That will not and should not happen immediately, for the obvious reason that many cars in the North American BEV fleet will continue to have CCS1 ports (for, say, 10-20 years and beyond). Will charge stations partially convert--offering combinations of NACS and CCS1 equipment? Has that already begun (I, myself, don't often use DC stations)? Perhaps, but again adapters may be the more economical answer.

Based on this, the use of (perhaps just four types of) adapters could possibly get us through the intermediate period to a time when pretty much all BEVs and charge stations are using the same basic charging equipment standard.

I think that you may have missed some of this thread. Tesla chargers are available to Rivians today. But Rivian chargers aren't open to anything except for Rivians yet. Maybe EOY.

Ford has already offered NACS adapters for their vehicles in a one-time for free offer. That I think expired/expires recently, but they supposedly extended it.

As far as to how long the CCS1 will stay around, well, you've already forgotten one of the more prevalent until just recently plugs, the CHAdeMO which is used by Nissan. There are a LOT of Leafs still on the roads. But many people have forgotten or don't even know what was recently one of the most prevalent DCFC solutions on the market.

Sure, there will be CCS1 stations out there, but as the CHAdeMO, they will start to fall out of use quickly. In a very short time, maybe 1-2 years, there will be more non-Tesla NACS vehicles on the road than CCS1 vehicles.

Why do I keep saying CCS1? Mainly to enforce that North America is about the only location that uses it. Europe is on CCS2, a different plug.
 
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I think that you may have missed some of this thread. Tesla chargers are available to Rivians today. But Rivian chargers aren't open to anything except for Rivians yet...

I guess I wasn't clear. My table is supposed to illustrate what might happen in the near future. (Unfortunately, I can no longer edit the table.)

Also, as I said, I am not sure what all the various DC fast chargers are doing right now, as I don't use them much, and I haven't visited areas in most of the US (outside of California) since owning an electric car.

Actually, the exercise of preparing that table was beneficial (to me), as it made clear that things (vis-à-vis charging) would probably not be too bad in the coming years. As I said, the use of a few simple adapters should take care of most compatibility issues until the time when all charging stations and cars are using the NACS equipment. And you are correct: drivers of certain (older) cars can continue to use CHAdeMO adapters (if they have access to that 50 kW-max DC charge equipment). And you are also correct, that CCS1 as a charging technology will gradually fall by the wayside. However, I think it may take a little longer than you predict. We'll see,

Naturally, in my post I was not figuring in apparently perpetual problems like broken chargers, copper wire theft, vandalism, crowding (at popular charging sites), the perennial lack of adequate numbers of charge facilities in less populated or outlying areas of the Country, and so forth. Even the superior Supercharger Network is subject to some of those things, correct?

I hope for a time when most or even all drivers are behind the wheels of BEVs (or some other safe, non-petroleum-fueled vehicles). But we've already seen the legitimate and not-so-legitimate push-back by the makers of ICE, PHEV, and FCEV vehicles specifically against BEVs. (Misinformation and behind-the-scenes lobbying by Toyota springs to mind.) I suspect that some (not all) recent reports and (almost gleeful) analyses of the downturn in the sales of BEVs were at least in part exaggerated, disingenuous, or even falsified in spin pushed to the media by those in the employ of BEVs' competitors. This is to be expected, unfortunately. There will be more coming as electric vehicles continue to make inroads. (For my part, I blame not only the perpetrators of "fake news," but also the ever-money-and readers/viewers-hungry News Media for not adequately vetting stories, of all kinds, adequately.)

As far as to how long the CCS1 will stay around, well, you've already forgotten one of the more prevalent until just recently plugs, the CHAdeMO which is used by Nissan. There are a LOT of Leafs still on the roads. But many people have forgotten or don't even know what was recently one of the most prevalent DCFC solutions on the market.

For my part, I have not forgotten CHAdeMO; I just chose to leave it off of the table since my focus, and the focus of the OP, was on Rivian and Tesla today (and in the future). I still have my (big 'ol) Tesla CHAdeMO adapter. I never use it. (Why not sell it? Because it cost me only $75 [that is a whole other story] and there is [or was] a CHAdeMO-outfitted 3rd-party charger near me, So I figure, keep it in the sub-trunk, just in case, you know?)

I am curious. Other than for Nissans, did all that many BEV drivers actually use CHAdeMO adapters much in North America? Of course some drivers used them a lot. But was popularity actually widespread? I think not. CHAdeMO technology was and may still be popular in Japan for all I know. But I have not seen actual data for North America.

I am aware that in NA outlying areas and in locations in Hawaii, for example, CHAdeMO was (and perhaps remains?) popular, because it was all that was available (in places with no or few Superchargers). However, as you point out, once the Supercharger network grew and more powerful (and hence quicker) CCS1 chargers came on the scene (thanks for screwing up royally, VW, and therefore giving us the "Electrify America" Network), CHAdeMO quickly disappeared from the proverbial radar screen (at least in moderately well-populated areas).

Sure, there will be CCS1 stations out there, but as the CHAdeMO, they will start to fall out of use quickly. In a very short time, maybe 1-2 years, there will be more non-Tesla NACS vehicles on the road than CCS1 vehicles.

Why do I keep saying CCS1? Mainly to enforce that North America is about the only location that uses it. Europe is on CCS2, a different plug.

Yes, I am also very aware that North America is the only area where CCS1 is used. (It's CCS2 in Europe and Oceania.) And the NACS (originally the Tesla proprietary charging standard) ports and plugs are/were pretty much only used in NA, Japan, and South Korea.

For new readers, here are some threads I've started over the years (from oldest to newest) relating to charging equipment:
 
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I guess I wasn't clear. My table is supposed to illustrate what might happen in the near future. (Unfortunately, I can no longer edit the table.)
I felt like this should be simpler, just buy the adapters for the other charger type regardless of what car you have. But there are messy subclasses now that I'm try to re-state what you wrote, so I am more respectful of your original post! ;-)

I'm going to post this but I'm not sure it's better than the original.

The TL/DR is today might as well buy the adapters for the other plug, it's not that much money over the car price itself and it greatly increases the sea of available chargers.
  1. If you have a CCS car, buy an AC NACS adapter, also you should probably buy a DC NACS supercharger adapter but you could wait too - see *2, *3, *4
  2. If you have a Tesla/NACS car, maybe buy a CCS DCFC adapter, also buy a NACS to j1772 AC adapter (many teslas already have this). *1
Today in July 2024, only Ford & Rivian can charge with a NACS DC supercharger adapter at Tesla superchargers; other car models are blocked through software blocking by Tesla, in the future pretty much every other CCS car will be added to the club.

And if you get an EV in the near future with NACS like from Rivian next year, follow instruction #2.

Then the messy issues - Tesla will make official supercharger adapters for CCS cars. For unknown reasons they are making them at a snail's pace, maybe to limit cars using superchargers. They say you have to use their CCS to NACS adapter. Lectron and A2Z make apparently good quality adapters, many people are buying them because there is a month's long wait to get an official adapter.

When the world switches to NACS, it will take a long time for the world to chargers to get NACS tips, I'd get in 5 years 1/4 of them will be switched but who knows. In 10 years maybe there won't be many CCS adapters. But there are still chademo chargers, the number shrinking every day.

*1 If you have a Tesla, then you absolutely need a j1772 adapter so you can charge your Tesla on AC everywhere you go. You might or might not need a CCS adapter. I never have gotten around to buying a CCS adapter for my older Tesla.
*2 If you have a non-supported CCS car (CCS but not a Ford or Rivian as of July 2024), you could wait on the DC supercharger adapter until your car model is supported, also after paint dries somewhere at Tesla you will eventually get an official one from your car maker, probably(?).
*3 GM is coming soon to superchargers, they've been testing it
*4 There's the other issue that Tesla only supports "official" Tesla supercharger adapters; lectron and A2Z act like they will get UL certification soon; it's pretty common for people to buy those adapters because they are running 6 months behind schedule on shipping official ones.
 
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Just for the record, unless something has changed that I don't know about, I doubt that the NACS will be adopted in the near future anywhere but in North America (and perhaps continue being used in Japan and South Korea). Take a look at the map here.
  • More knowledgeable readers have pointed out in the threads I listed above and other places that the European and Oceania (including Australia and New Zealand) electrical grids require the ability to handle three phase AC electrical power. The NACS generally cannot handle that, correct? (I am clearly not an electrical engineer.) Three phase electricity may be used at industrial sites in North America, but to my knowledge is rare in home and smaller commercial installations. CCS1/J1772 equipment might have worked for three phase AC(?), but CCS1+J1772 standards have apparently been out-competed by the NACS (i.e., Tesla) ports and plugs, which are smaller and clearly more convenient for use by NA consumer BEVs.
  • China is very nationalistic and proprietary and wants everyone to use its GB/T stuff.
  • That leaves the large areas of South America, Africa, the Middle East, Russia, and the Indian sub-continent. Lst I heard, some/most of those are leaning toward adopting the European standard when and if their respective BEV markets take off. (The choice of a regional charging standard may not be as straightforward as might be expected. It might involve elements of politics [including financial deal-making], national pride, and any good/bad history with other countries (e.g., of colonization and warfare), in additional to sound engineering and common sense.)
 
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Just for the record, unless something has changed that I don't know about, I doubt that the NACS will be adopted in the near future anywhere but in North America (and perhaps continue being used in Japan and South Korea). Take a look at the map here.
  • More knowledgeable readers have pointed out in the threads I listed above and other places that the European and Oceania (including Australia and New Zealand) electrical grids require the ability to handle three phase AC electrical power. The NACS generally cannot handle that, correct? (I am clearly not an electrical engineer.) Three phase electricity may be used at industrial sites in North America, but to my knowledge is rare in home and smaller commercial installations. CCS1/J1772 equipment might have worked for three phase AC(?), but CCS1+J1772 standards have apparently been out-competed by the NACS (i.e., Tesla) ports and plugs, which are smaller and clearly more convenient for use by NA consumer BEVs.
  • China is very nationalistic and proprietary and wants everyone to use its GB/T stuff.
  • That leaves the large areas of South America, Africa, the Middle East, Russia, and the Indian sub-continent. Lst I heard, some/most of those are leaning toward adopting the European standard when and if their respective BEV markets take off. (The choice of a regional charging standard may not be as straightforward as might be expected. It might involve elements of politics [including financial deal-making], national pride, and any good/bad history with other countries (e.g., of colonization and warfare), in additional to sound engineering and common sense.)
I'm pretty sure j3400 (the NACS standards) mandates 3 phase support. See SAE J3400 and the game-changing advances in AC charging where it says "It supports AC voltages commonly available in commercial areas, streets, parking garages, and dense housing locations, specifically 480/277-V three-phase power". I am also not an EE!

I already read somewhere, maybe it was the batteries included podcast where they said what happens if you have an adapter for a CCS car to use a NACS plug and you don't have 3 phase support in your ccs AC input?

I speculate that Tesla has supported 3 phase power via AC but there aren't very many AC 3-phase adapters these days. Was the Tesla 80 amp EVSE 3 phase capable? I want someone who knows what they are doing better than me to clarify these.

Going back to the first post (less interesting than 3 phase AC, am I right?), Rivian says they will open their network to non-rivians, not sure why it's taking so long - maybe they don't have billing terminals and the 100th app for non-rivian owners ready to install.
 
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I'm pretty sure j3400 (the NACS standards) mandates 3 phase support...

If so, that would be good and possibly better allow the NACS to spread elsewhere (based on electrical engineering alone)? However, as I said, there may sometimes be political, nationalistic, regionally-chauvinistic, financial, and/or other non-purely-engineering reasons that come into play when adopting particular charging standards.

I speculate that Tesla has supported 3 phase power via AC but there aren't very many AC 3-phase adapters these days. Was the Tesla 80 amp EVSE 3 phase capable?...

The 80a Generation 2 Wall Connector (HPWC) Installation Manual (P/N: 1069742-00-A) (Page 8) provides circuit diagrams for 208v 3-Phase Wye-, 240v Three-Phase Delta-, and 277v Three-Phase Wye-connected installations (in addition to the more standard 240v Single-Phase installations). This manual is intended for use in North America and Japan. There is similar language in a later manual (Page 9) for that wall connector (P/N: 1069742-00-D) (intended for NA, Japan, and Taiwan).

So I guess the answer is,...maybe. It is YES for North America if the US and Canada use any of those 3-Phase or Three-Phase setups (which I know nothing about). And I note that the Japanese and North American Wall Connectors obviously did come with the Tesla proprietary plug (while the cars had the corresponding port).

Is the new NACS equipment substantially different from the original Tesla proprietary ports & plugs? (I assumed that they would be virtually identical.) If not, it suggests that the original ports and plugs (that have become the NACS equipment) did have the capability of handling Three(3)-Phase electricity. (Is that analysis correct?)

*****​

BTW, regardless of all those specific engineering issues, it seems clear to me that the 80a Wall Connector (intended for NA and Japan) was pretty darn flexible (in voltage, power, and phases, if that makes sense).

Going back to the first post (less interesting than 3 phase AC, am I right?), Rivian says they will open their network to non-rivians, not sure why it's taking so long - maybe they don't have billing terminals and the 100th app for non-rivian owners ready to install.

I know that (even though they are apparently making fundamentally different kinds of vehicles, with the exception of CT) I tend to judge Rivian in direct comparison to Tesla. Is that fair?

I guess that I must try to keep in mind that Rivian has only been producing actual vehicles for consumers since, what?--October 2021. The company it is often compared to, Tesla, started producing all-Tesla vehicles in 2012 (with the Model S). (To be fair I've disregarded the original Roadster.) So let's say that Tesla has had at least a ten-year advantage in all phases of electric car manufacture--vehicles, AC charging equipment, and DC charging stations.* And that makes a difference. And Rivian is apparently still in that delicate financial state (like Tesla was prior to 2017), and so probably cannot invest as much into or pay as much attention to infrastructure as it would like to. That may quickly change (if Rivian survives).

So, anyway, Rivian is naturally going to be behind the (Tesla) curve on some things, at least for a little while I guess.

To be fair, I also read that Rivian is (patiently?) waiting for Tesla to supply approved Tesla-to-Rivian adapters for its (Rivian's) customers. Both companies may be responsible for progress, or lack thereof, towards shared charging.
_____
* On the other hand, not being first Rivian probably had an advantage of being able to learn from Tesla (and being able to poach its staff :)).
 
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