Rivian's Early Offerings Include 7-Seater SUV

[commasign]

Rivian will not have the same challenges as Tesla.

An optimistic view at best. You could say the same things about Faraday, Karma 2.0, Lucid, Nio, and Byton. They all have (or had) money. They all have (or had) talent. Some already have factories and suppliers. But from watching Tesla for the last 10 years, I get the sense most will ultimately fail.

 

[RobStark]

An optimistic view at best. You could say the same things about Faraday, Karma 2.0, Lucid, Nio, and Byton. They all have (or had) money. They all have (or had) talent. Some already have factories and suppliers. But from watching Tesla for the last 10 years, I get the sense most will ultimately fail.

Realistic.

Faraday Future had a grossly over optimistic CEO. He hired savvy industry vets that told him he needed between $10B-$20B to fund his fantastical visions and he budgeted $3B. RJ Scaringe isn't ignoring the advice of industry vets he hired.

Karma 2.0 is a grotesquely inefficient PHEV. Big on the outside, small on the inside. Not fast and not fuel efficient. Doomed to failure.

Lucid has a better chance but no where near Rivian. They are planning on taking Model S and Porsche Taycan head-on. Rivian is going where they ain't. Saudi PiF, after saving Lucid's bacon, is insistenting they develop a full sized SUV. They are at least a year behind Rivian.

I am not nearly as familiar with the Chinese based startups and the Chinese market. Byton seems to have BMW's former BEV team with Chinese money.

NIO subcontracts most of the manufacturing so they are not really a manufacturing company. They are really an autonomous systems company first, EV design and marketing second. I have no clue how advanced their autonomous systems are compared to Tesla et al.

I give Rivian a better chance to be selling vehicles in 2030 than Ford.

And I give Lucid and Byton a better chance to be selling vehicles in 2030 than FCA, which chances are approaching ZERO.

Edit Corrected for Karma description. Original had it backward.

 

[commasign]

@RobStark Agree. Rivian has the best shot of all these companies at getting to actual production and customer deliveries. I really hope they succeed.

 

[commasign]

Big on the inside, small on the outside.

I think you meant big on the outside, small on the inside.

 

[RobStark]

I don't fear change... I bought a nose-coned Model S in early '13 when the serial number portion of the VIN were in the very low 5 digits. So now that we've addressed your little passive/aggressive insinuation….

I make my own subjective judgment regarding aesthetics... and the headlights look weird, not only as "compared to other cars" but they look out of place in regards to the overall Rivian styling. It might work on a hatchback or little compact... but they look out of place on a SUV/truck, IMO.

That's the thing about subjectivity... while there is no wrong answer, there can be strong sentiment amongst observers. And the "weird headlight" comment is the one aesthetic detractor I've seen commented on most.

Incidentally, your Model S nosecone example is interesting because it was also one of the biggest aesthetic detractors when the S first hit. I'm not a big fan of it myself. The interesting part is Franz has said he never really liked it... and the Model S facelift was his improvement, and I agree that ti was... as well as most opinions of others I've heard. So your use of it as an example of uproar over change is... uh... "interesting".

The Nose Cone was a conservative play.

Model S with Nose Cone was apping ICEv like Maserati and Jaguar.

It was a faux closed grill. Of course Franz disliked it. Good design is form follows function. Good design doesn't tell lies. Tesla was bending to conservative premium sedan buyer's taste. Rivian isn't doing the same with conservative full size SUV/pickup buyers.

With the exception of the original Infiniti Q45 that was a market failure I can't think of a premium sedan that sells in the 10s of thousands with an MSRP over $60k in current dollars that doesn't have an open grill. It is usually the bigger the better. The closest is the Porsche Panamera which is aping the styling of a rear engined 911 sports car, kind of a unique niche.

The Rivian headlights front end treatment looks out of place relative to today's SUVs and full size pickups that ape Semi Tractor styling.

Less expensive cars like little hatchbacks will have closed front end, because it cheaper, more efficient, and owners don't feel the need to ape Big Rig styling.

The charge that it looks right or not is based on current ICEv aesthetics. People don't like a deviation from today's norm because they fear/dislike change.

Eventually, the vestigial grill on the current Model S and X will go away. And closed front ends will "feel" more normal. Even for someone spending $60k plus on a pickup or SUV.

 

[scaesare]

The Nose Cone was a conservative play.

Model S with Nose Cone was apping ICEv like Maserati and Jaguar.

It was a faux closed grill. Of course Franz disliked it. Good design is form follows function. Good design doesn't tell lies. Tesla was bending to conservative premium sedan buyer's taste. Rivian isn't doing the same with conservative full size SUV/pickup buyers.

With the exception of the original Infiniti Q45 that was a market failure I can't think of a premium sedan that sells in the 10s of thousands with an MSRP over $60k in current dollars that doesn't have an open grill. It is usually the bigger the better. The closest is the Porsche Panamera which is aping the styling of a rear engined 911 sports car, kind of a unique niche.

The Rivian headlights front end treatment looks out of place relative to today's SUVs and full size pickups that ape Semi Tractor styling.

Less expensive cars like little hatchbacks will have closed front end, because it cheaper, more efficient, and owners don't feel the need to ape Big Rig styling.

The charge that it looks right or not is based on current ICEv aesthetics. People don't like a deviation from today's norm because they fear/dislike change.

Eventually, the vestigial grill on the current Model S and X will go away. And closed front ends will "feel" more normal. Even for someone spending $60k plus on a pickup or SUV.

You seem to have missed the point I was making about the nosecone and ran in some other direction.

As for "People don't like a deviation from today's norm because they fear/dislike change." , it's also possible that people don't like a particular style aesthetic for any number of reasons: it's disproportionate, the shape seems odd, it doesn't follow similar design cues as the rest of the object, the transitions are abrupt, the placement is awkward, etc...

To assume the only possible reason a particular design element is disliked is because that person "fears change" is not only incorrect, it's presumptuous.

 

[RobStark]

You seem to have missed the point I was making about the nosecone and ran in some other direction.

As for "People don't like a deviation from today's norm because they fear/dislike change." , it's also possible that people don't like a particular style aesthetic for any number of reasons: it's disproportionate, the shape seems odd, it doesn't follow similar design cues as the rest of the object, the transitions are abrupt, the placement is awkward, etc...

To assume the only possible reason a particular design element is disliked is because that person "fears change" is not only incorrect, it's presumptuous.

You can couch your dislike any way you please.

They dislike the proportions. From today based on ICEv proportions.

It seems odd. Based on ICEv design.

People prefer the old because they dislike/fear change.

Every year more people that cling to the old aesthetic will die/age out of the car buying market.

Charges of "presumptuousness" is an empty ad hominem attack.

 

[scaesare]

You can couch your dislike any way you please.

They dislike the proportions. From today based on ICEv proportions.

It seems odd. Based on ICEv design.

People prefer the old because they dislike/fear change.

Every year more people that cling to the old aesthetic will die/age out of the car buying market.

Charges of "presumptuousness" is an empty ad hominem attack.

I didn't realize you were omniscient.

 

[justaute]

I'm quite excited about Rivian -- its visual designs are much more to my liking than that of Model X. And, my hunch is that it will have comparatively fewer operational issues than Tesla. Elon may be a visionary, but I don't think he has the temperament to be a good operator/manager. Too many operational miscues.

Rivian CEO hints that 400-mile electric truck will be under $90K

 

[Cosmacelf]

I'm quite excited about Rivian -- its visual designs are much more to my liking than that of Model X. And, my hunch is that it will have comparatively fewer operational issues than Tesla. Elon may be a visionary, but I don't think he has the temperament to be a good operator/manager. Too many operational miscues.

Rivian CEO hints that 400-mile electric truck will be under $90K

To be fair, while Elon has a bunch of, to us, obvious operational miscues, he also has a bunch of technological and process breakthroughs that no one else has.

BTW, while it is dump on Elon time because the SEC is after him, remember what happened to the last self made genius billionaire who also got into trouble with the govt: he ended up the richest man in the world and left behind enduring companies (ignore the whole peeing in bottles thing, I think Elon’s style, should he end up a recluse, would be to live on a volcanic island lair and keep everyone on edge by lobbing rockets around ).

 

[azjohn]

Personally, I'd like to see Tesla and Rivian to remain separate. They both have unique interesting CEOs and each have a different approach. We need more diversity in the EV space, not less.

completely agree

 

[justaute]

To be fair, while Elon has a bunch of, to us, obvious operational miscues, he also has a bunch of technological and process breakthroughs that no one else has.

BTW, while it is dump on Elon time because the SEC is after him, remember what happened to the last self made genius billionaire who also got into trouble with the govt: he ended up the richest man in the world and left behind enduring companies (ignore the whole peeing in bottles thing, I think Elon’s style, should he end up a recluse, would be to live on a volcanic island lair and keep everyone on edge by lobbing rockets around ).

Don't disagree. I've been an ops guy in the investment world for quite some time. Innovative ideas are great, but they need execution, however mundane they may seem. And, for a corporation to have certain longevity, you need good people. I have no idea whether the throngs of people who left Tesla, at will or not, were any good, but that's not a good sign. Not saying Tesla shouldn't have growing pains, but I'm of the mind-set many of them could have been avoided and processes could have been better designed. I guess we'll see how everything plays out. Rivian's products are on the top of my list of next acqusition(s) -- we'll see how Rivian does.

 

[Blu Angel]

Let's update this thread.....

I really like the Rivian trucks esp. the SUV

First question I have is why Rivian didn't sign up o use the Tesla Supercharger network

To me it seems like a natural fit between this upscale demographic clientele and the instant
USA/Canada SC network