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Road and Track Eclectic Electric showdown

Discussion in 'News' started by vfx, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    So many places and so many titles for this thread it was hard to choose.

    Local LA TV station KTLA-5 had a morning live broadcast covering green and the LA Auto Show. KTLA is partnering with LA times and Dan Neil to cover the show and what it's bringing to town. They had the Volt outside the studio and a live feed from Irvine where Gayle the reporter had other EVs and Dennis Siminitas of Road and Track magazine.

    RnT were about to run a series of tests on a gaggle of Evs (or would that be a "simple" of Evs?).

    They had a Rav4, Miev, Wrightspeed, Ebox, Tesla Roadster (looked like VP23), and the Dodge EV (Lotus Europa).

    Dennis said they were going to test them all for an upcoming article called Eclectic Electric and that this is the (their) first official independent test of the Roadster.

    The segment I saw did not have Dan and I would have liked to see the new Mini that debuts at the show.

    But it will be great to see one of those SHOWDOWN covers with three amazing EVs in the foreground.

    Look for more KTLA AM coverage of all the above during this week.

    From the site:

    L.A. Auto Show
    Gayle Anderson was live in Irvine with Dan Neil, Automotive Columnist for the Los Angeles Times, preparing for the 2008 L.A. Auto Show (LA Auto Show) by getting an up close and personal look at the ECLECTIC ELECTRICS being tested at the El Toro Marine Base.L.A. Auto Show

    November 17, 2008
    Then, Gayle Mr. Neil took a look at the new BMW 335d, which according to the manufacturer it's worth a look for its speed and frugality.
    The 2008 L.A. Auto Show begins Friday, November 21st and runs through Sunday, November 30th ( That includes Thanksgiving weekend! ) at the Los Angeles Convention Center, 1201 South Figueroa Street, Los Angeles, CA 90015,
    For more information about the vehicles and this week's 2008 L.A. Auto Show, check the website: KTLA/LATIMES.COM Auto Show Coverage
    If you have questions, please feel free to call Gayle Anderson at 323-460-5732 or e-mail Gayle at [email protected]
     
  2. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    #2 doug, Dec 5, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
    3082565758_cbc4d19d8e_b.jpg
    Left to right: ACP eBox, Toyota RAV-EV, Tesla Roadster, Mitsubishi iMiEV, Dodge eV
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Wow. Might have to reinstate my R&T subscription if they keep this up!
     
  4. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #5 vfx, Dec 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2008
    Been a while since I've anticipated an article this much.
    Though the cynic in me says the guys who buy a lot of ad space will come out best.
     
  5. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    #6 doug, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
    I guess we missed posting this here:

    RoadandTrack.com -- New Car Search - Electric Vehicle Celebration (12/2008)

    [​IMG][​IMG]


    I appreciate that the article is pretty positive about EV's in general, but I'm a bit disappointed with it overall. There are just some short blurbs about each car and no real comparison. There are some good photos of each car (albeit only available at low resolution), but no group shots, save for a glimpse of the cars driving in formation in the video.
     
  6. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  7. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Sorry - so much activity I can't keep up anymore!
     
  9. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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  10. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #11 TEG, Feb 14, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2009
    0-60:
    2.9s; Wrightspeed X1
    4.s; Tesla Roadster
    7.0s; ACP eBox
    11.9s; iMiEV
    16.1s; RAV4EV :frown:

    0-80:
    4.6s; Wrightspeed X1
    6.7s; Tesla Roadster
    12.2; ACP eBox

    1/4 mile:
    [email protected]; Wrightspeed X1
    [email protected]; Tesla Roadster
    [email protected]; ACP eBox
    [email protected]; iMiEV
    [email protected]; RAV4EV

    60-0:
    110ft; Wrightspeed X1
    119ft; Tesla Roadster
    130ft; ACP eBox
    134ft; iMiEV
    136ft; RAV4EV

    80-0:
    188ft; Wrightspeed X1 :eek:
    210ft; Tesla Roadster
    228ft; ACP eBox
    247ft; iMiEV

    700-ft slalom:
    71.1mph; Wrightspeed X1
    68.6mph; Tesla Roadster
    62.7mph; ACP eBox
    59.7mph; iMiEV
    58.9mph; RAV4EV

    Skidpad:
    1.19g; Wrightspeed X1 :biggrin:
    .92g; Tesla Roadster
    .80g; ACP eBox
    .75g; iMiEV
    .62g; RAV4EV

    Dodge EV:
    No test results.:mad:
     
  11. Joseph

    Joseph Member

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    In the quarter-mile results you can tell the X1 is tuned - most probably just a change in the gear ratio - towards lower speeds (and thus higher acceleration at those low speeds) because it goes the quarter mile quicker than the Roadster, but finishes it at a slower speed. The Roadster goes 2 mph faster out of the quarter-mile.

    The 60-0 time is pretty bad, for all the cars actually. The GTR , 370z, and 911 Turbo all do 60-0 at around 100 feet. And there's plenty more also.

    The Tesla did real well in the slalom. Its skidpad results look like a compromise between efficiency and performance. The Roadster is still a stunning car; Tesla's first gen car nearly outperforms companies who've taken decades to perfect their automobiles.
     
  12. Brent

    Brent Member

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    Does tire size contribute more to stopping distance than disc brake efficiency? I think the gasoline cars you mention all have quite wide tires, or at least much wider than the Roadster's.
     
  13. siry

    siry Member

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    Here is the "skinny" on roadster braking.

    First, let me say that from the earliest time I was there, I always argued that the braking performance was inadequate, and often found my self in an argument with the vehicle engineers who insisted I only "perceived" it to be inadequate. At the end of the day, the poor performance of roadster braking is both a "feel" issue and an empirical issue.

    First let me address the actual stopping power. The stock roadster is grip limited by the front tires. They are too skinny to provide enough stopping grip so when you really stomp on the brake the ABS kicks in. This is not a surprise because the front tires are the same width and rubber compound as the elise which is 700+ pounds lighter (175mm width Yoko Advan Neova)

    Since the brakes are locking up the wheel, that should mean they are adequate to stop the car. Therefore, bigger brakes would not improve the stopping distance.

    So the answer to a shorter stopping distance would require more grip in the front. This should mean that the roadster sport, which has the same setup as the Exige in the front (195mm width) and the same rubber (Yoko Advan AO48). Problem is with the AO48s you will have less range and they last a very short time before requiring replacement. They also stink in the wet.

    I don't know if the car is caliper/rotor limited with the sport setup, but I doubt it.

    Now for the feel issue: the power brakes have a vacuum booster (powered by an electrical vacuum pump). This booster, I learned, was spec'd to be smaller in diameter than the standard elise booster because of concerns with clearance with other components in the front. Smaller diameter = less boost = you need to push harder on the pedal to get the same level of stopping power. This makes the car feel like it isn't stopping although it will stop if you push really hard.

    The feel issue is subjective, but I argued that the majority of our customers are going to be accustomed to modern sports luxury cars that are generally heavily boosted. Indeed, that's the feedback from customers.

    So, im my opinion, Tesla should increase the size of the vacuum brake booster.

    I don't think Yoko makes the Advan neova in the 195/45 16 size so unfortunately I think the only option from a grip standpoint is the AO48s with the caveats listed above.
     
  14. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Thanks for that info. That jibes with my speculative thoughts on the matter as well. I figured the A048 sport tires would reduce range, and tire lifespan, as is generally the tradeoff to get better tire performance. Claims that the stock Neova tires didn't have to compromise any performance never seemed totally believable to me as lower rolling resistance tires generally have harder rubber with less grip.

    The other thing is the weight distribution. Most of the new weight is in the back part of the vehicle, so the weight distribution starts to favor the rear wheel braking compared to an Elise. I assume brake portioning has been adjusted to put an appropriate enhancement to rear brake force to compensate for the different weight distribution. Are the rear rotors sufficient? They may need more of an upgrade than the fronts.

    There were some public reports of Roadsters rear ending other vehicles, and some anecdotal mention of braking concerns, but I always assumed it was primarily the way the silent low end torque that got people up to higher speeds than they generally would have gotten with an ICE vehicle. I imagine a new driver to a Roadster would surprisingly find themselves doing 70mph without trying where in an Elise or Exige they would make a mental note to pay attention and easy up once they got to 3rd or 4th gear.

    The brakes could be fine, but if the car encourages you to drive too fast you have a problem.
     
  15. Palpatine

    Palpatine Banned

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    That is my concern with the Roadster Sport. The performance tires are not something I would want to have on the car on a daily basis in Seattle. The fact that they do worse in the rain is just the clincher for me.

    I am going to take delivery of the black alloy Tesla wheels and the performance tires. But those are only going to be for special track fun days.

    My regular wheels are going to be the light alloy Tesla wheels and the regular tires that other Roadsters use.

    I am inquiring now about the cost.
     

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