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Road-rager's attorney mentions regenerative braking during case

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by yobigd20, Jan 21, 2016.

  1. WMAC

    WMAC Member

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    CA has signs that say, "Bikes May Use Full Lane." Bicycles are vehicles that are held to the same laws as motor vehicles with the minor exceptions. They must ride as far to the right as practicable. That does not mean on the line or on the shoulder. It means as far to the right as the rider feels safe. Further, cars may not come closer than three feet of the cyclist's body. That means cars often cannot perform an in-lane pass and must change lanes to pass. Impeding traffic does not mean the cars behind must slow down and wait to safely pass. A minor delay is not an impediment.

    Have you ever stopped at a stop sign or stop light? That means you have had to wait for other traffic - just like you have had to wait for people on bikes. It's no different. Every day Insee bad drivers on the road - and you have too. There are bad bicyclists and bad drivers. The bad drivers can kill a bicyclist. People who pass closely get the finger from bicyclists. I have never seen a bicyclist behave that way for no, unprovoked, reason.

    Go Pros are becoming very common on bicyclists and we are seeing more and more that drivers are way worse when it comes to dangerous driving around bicyclists than the other way around.

    Pass slowly and safely and be courteous and bicyclists will, almost always, do the same.

     
  2. Max*

    Max* Charging

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    87.432689432678% of statistics are made up on the spot.
     
  3. Nikxice

    Nikxice Member

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    Those that oppose brake light illumination during heavy regen are dismissing a key safety element of the vehicle. It is essential that the lights communicate rapid deceleration to other drivers. If the lights are interpreted as a 'brake job', this is likely due to the failure of the Tesla driver to plan ahead for a closed front zone. Following too closely is one example. Another might be maintaining speed too long or even accelerating towards slower traffic ahead. Even a novice EV driver can quickly learn how to smooth out the throttle and effectively avoid this issue.
     
  4. scottm

    scottm Version 9 software sufferer

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    #44 scottm, Jan 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
    Some cars, BMW comes to mind, offers variable brightness of brake lights, or multi-staged brake lights (more bulbs light), so the harder you press and faster deceleration makes more light. Not sure if this feature is enabled in North America.. laws differ.

    But I was thinking something like that for Tesla regen would be nice, half bright when regen gets to the point where brakes lights want to come on now... and then stay on so long as car is decelerating. .. and if you put your foot into the brake too then full brake light intensity comes on. If you release your foot from pedal but car is still decelerating then the half-lit remains on right down to about 5mph, then go off. Your foot on brake at any time, car rolling either direction, or halted, means full lights on.

    You're welcome Tesla, now do it!
     
  5. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    It is enabled in the US.

    The LED lights are quite startling as well. I scared some random guy in a truck tonight and he immediately passed me, as any rational person would when behind a crazy person always tapping on the brakes.


    edit - yeah and that's just going to contribute to the idea that there are teslaholes driving around, like everyone hates BMW's
     
  6. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    #46 Canuck, Jan 23, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
    I've driven my Tesla for two years, including to my cabin and back countless times, much of which is on a single lane highway over two high mountain passes. (How long have you driven an EV for up and down very steep and windy mountain roads?) In my Tahoe Hybrid, I know exactly when I have to hit the brakes at certain corners. Lesser corners I can negotiate without hitting the brakes in my Tahoe, but on some you must. In my Tesla, on practically every corner, including the lesser ones, after coming off a straight stretch, my Tesla puts on the brake lights during regen (although I do the entire highway drive without hitting the brakes at all in my Tesla those behind me think otherwise -- to the extreme!).

    Are you telling me to continue to give electrons into those corners? -- which means I must go into them slower -- which would p-off the people behind me -- or do you want me drive slower from the start so I don't let go off the electron pedal at all -- which would super p-off the people behind me? Because that's the only way to avoid the brake lights coming on and I've tried both and both are not good answers to this problem. Or do you have another solution? I'm all ears because my only solution is to hope the people behind me know that I'm not riding the brakes -- it's just my Tesla being overly cautious (stupidly cautious, in fact) with its braking signals. It should be noted that this isn't a case of people wanting to overtake me since I drive fast but unless the person behind me knows about regen, I look like an amateur riding the brakes, as if my foot is going on and off the brake pedal. But there's simply no other way to do the drive to my cabin at the same speed, until you tell me where I'm going wrong -- and your comments must be directed to driving a highway like this one... (since otherwise I don't really have a problem)...

    The highway, which is mostly two lanes, was officially established in 1932, mainly following a mid-19th century gold rush trail originally traced out by an engineer named Edgar Dewdney. It takes its name from the Crowsnest Pass... There are several significant ascents in this stretch between Hope and Princeton. The first is the steep climb to the Hope Slide, followed later by the remainder of the climb up to Allison Pass at an elevation of 1,342m (4,473 ft). After the summit of Allison Pass, where the Crowsnest crosses from the Fraser Valley Regional District into the Regional District of Okanagan-Similkameen, the road descends for 40 km (25 mi) before beginning another long climb up Sunday Summit (1,284m, 4,280 ft). Soon after Sunday Summit is the descent into Princeton, where Highway 5A begins.
     
  7. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    Good point Canuck. Anyone driving around the mountains, automatic or not, knows to put it in a lower gear and not ride the brakes all the way down, obviously the brake lights do not come on.
     
  8. Nikxice

    Nikxice Member

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    Sounds like the highway you've described requires the full attention any driver. Maintaining a constant speed does not appear to be safe or even possible. Consider two ways to enter a sharp curve. Slow down first and come out fast or try maintaining speed and perhaps not come out at all. I can appreciate your frustration driving around those mountain roads. I'll bet you rarely touch the brake pedal. Sure, decelerating can cause the brake lights to illuminate. I can live with that. Some might consider it a problem, others not. I would expect following traffic to take a cue from those lights. Everyone needs to be slowing down for a safe curve entry.
     
  9. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    Maintaining constant speed is not required anywhere. You _always_ need to estimate speeds of other cars, the brake light is an indication that a car intends to stop or rapid deceleration. Neither of which happens on the highway while under regen, for example.

    Forget the argument, consider how controversial this is to mean there IS a problem, even if some people don't agree or care.
     
  10. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I've driven a Model S for 40 months now and never seen this. At least the way I drive.
     
  11. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    I was going ~25 mph on a highway with about 5" of snow on it, which also really means no rapid movements of any kind.

    As it may not occur to you in Nevada, while hitting the brakes on a normal highway makes you some sort of doofus, hitting the brakes while on several inches of snow or ice on the highway makes you a dangerous idiot who's about to spin out and crash into 8 different things, probably ending up flipped over in the median.
     
  12. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    If you are doing 25 mph and not making any rapid movements the brake lights are not going to come on--unless your Model S works far differently than mine does.
     
  13. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    I believe there's also something to be said for attempting to drive in such a way as allowing yourself room for more gradual deceleration rates as well.

    Giving yourself bit more following space, and paying attention farther down the road, often will allow for being able to regen under the brake light threshold for at least a potion of the stopping distance. Not always possible, of course, but I'm amazed at how many people leave very little forward following distance, or begin very late braking at a stoplight, etc...
     
  14. scottm

    scottm Version 9 software sufferer

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    #54 scottm, Jan 24, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2016
    How about a bumper sticker that says "CAUTION car may unintentionally decelerate causing brake lights to come on" ??


    Hm.. an unintentional deceleration scandal. "Honest officer my foot was off the brake, I don't know why my car was slowing down..."

    So long as your brake lights are functioning, guy in the rear is at fault, around here anyway. Following too close and or not paying attention. Always.
     
  15. McRat

    McRat Well-Known Member

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    Around here, Right Of Way trumps brake lights. You can't slam on your brakes and swerve into the next lane in front of a faster vehicle.

    This is one of the more common causes of cars who get hit by large trucks. They change lanes right in front the truck, then hit their brakes hard to make an offramp or corner. The citation (if the driver lives) goes to the car. You violated the truck's right way.
     
  16. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    There is a fair amount of snow in the Tahoe area and I've driven many winters in the snow so know the basics of driving on snow and ice fairly well. You want to leave yourself enough room to not need to hit your breaks if possible.
     
  17. CHG-ON

    CHG-ON Still in love after all these miles

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    I have always been concerned about driving the people behind me crazy with the regen lights. That's why I was very happy when they went to the toy car. Now I watch that carefully to only regen enough as to not turn them on. Few things bug me more than the person in front of me constantly hitting the damn brakes. TACC has completely eliminated that annoyance from my life. I just let the car deal with it. So much less stressful. I actually like that more than the auto steer.
     
  18. jcaspar

    jcaspar Member

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    This comes from using the accelerator like an on/off switch. With practice you will be able to modulate the accelerator to slow your acceleration without a full let off. I suspect those who have driven manual transmissions (and not the Euro manumatic paddles) already have this practice.

     
  19. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    <This should be off topic but, given the way this thread has devolved, it hardly is>

    So, if you really want to drive the tailing car batty whilst on a long downhill, throw your Tesla in reverse and modulate the descent with the accelerator. It will work in the same fashion, except with those white lights on all the time.....
     
  20. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    Driven manual transmission only for the last 20 years, and I seriously doubt it. Engine braking has basically instantaneous and predictable results, depending only on gear and rpm. The regen was actively engineered to not be responsive at certain times (i.e. rapid off the throttle), I'd guesstimate 500-750ms delay in some cases. In other cases while already under regen it's more responsive, as well as regen power being adjusted dynamically (and not linearly, if you watch carefully, it does a little pseudo-downshift). It's why all the good gamers turn off mouse acceleration, impossible to develop "muscle memory" with it on.

    So this is not that off-topic, as long as we assume the driver in question didn't mean to brake check the cyclist.
     

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